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Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:56 pm

In post 48, kuribo wrote:it was just me telling the town HEY BRIAN SKIES IS THE VIG AND THE SCUMTEAM KNOWS IT

whyd u do that
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Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:15 pm

In post 50, Psyche wrote:whyd u do that



I was caught scum and I felt like it
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Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:12 pm

That lets the doc know tho
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Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:24 pm

there's maybe benefit in making something explicit that previously would have been ambiguous (town's knowledge of the slot's pr)
knowing that the whole town is conscious of a slot's PR could make certain game theoretic decisions more sound (like guessing where the doctor's protection will go)
the practice could also mislead the town into thinking the mafia has a role cop
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Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:14 pm

good point
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Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:25 pm

In post 35, MichelSableheart wrote:1. They allow players to daytalk who should not have that ability, and are therefore banned in my games.


They don't, actually. Anyone can communicate in the thread, and anyone can interpret something differently than others. What crumbs do is they give signals that the mafia or masons could have decided to give a meaning to, and then would use that in thread where everything is public, as you said. Then the other partner would read that signal and interpret that with the knowledge they have already gleaned from the private, legal chat qt. It's not a private exchange since the exchange is public between everyone, it's just that not everyone has the knowledge from the private thread they cannot access.

I'll only drop this if you or anyone else can prove that 'signaling' or bread-crumbing is equivalent to coding. Yet townies/scum have picked up breadcrumbs in the past so it doesn't mean it is not public access. It is possible to notice before they claim it, even though you or I may not notice it at first. I'm just saying this to challenge you, but I respect your decision anyway. Also, since scum can pick it up, it's possible that that scum notices it and can kill off the PR without anyone else noticing his crumbs at all. Meaning posting bread crumbs can be risky.

In post 43, Gamma Emerald wrote:Well is softclaiming okay? You know, saying you townread or scumread someone heavily when you're cop?


Softclaiming seems ok because that is subjective. Language is subjective. What Date to me (09/27/2016) may be Date (mating interview) for you. What Bark to me (Woof!) may be Bark (Tree Skin) to you. What Bill to me (Money Owed) may be Bill (Pokemon Researcher) to you. What your townread to me (townread) may be a townread (cop scan) to you. It's still a townread to me and others and it means something entirely different to you and there is no rule against feeling a certain way about a read and being influenced by information from a role that you are playing.

If you die n1, it may indeed be the case that everyone will continue to interpret it as a regular read. For them to interpret like you do as (pr), you would have to outright claim your PR so they can trust your infomation, and so they can see why you would name him town there. That's not coding. That's simply lying (or omitting the strongest evidence of why you believe he is town purposely to secure the information in the public thread if you die) about why your read is a townread, and you are forcing a townread on your copscan to make it seem natural.

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Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:29 am

They allow the exchange of private information without the other players even knowing that information is being exchanged. That's functionally equivalent to daytalk.

As an example: In a game I played a couple of years ago, I was a mafia role cop, and had claimed role cop publicly. I knew I was going to claim a fake guilty on a player, and I knew there was a significant risk of that play backfiring. So I decided a simple rule with my mafia partners: If my investigation that night was vanilla, I would start my first post that day with a vote. If my investigation showed powerrole, I would end my first post with a vote instead. There is simply no way for town to spot that difference. "Vote [player], I have a guilty" and "I have a guilty, therefore Vote [player]" are both completely logical ways to write such a post. Yet my scumpartners would get to know the most crucial part of my investigation. That is the equivalent of a private exchange of information.

Similarly, it is simply unfeasible to check every single post in a 50 page day 1 for possible breadcrumbs with multiple possible ways of signaling. Yet when a player points out a breadcrumb, it is relatively simple to check that it's there, and it's impossible for that to be accidental. Sure, breadcrumbs might be found from time to time, but that doesn't happen often. And when they don't get found, they have the exact same effect as cryptography: It's provable that you posted the information now, but the information only becomes public at a later time.

I feel that the information in the public thread should be deducible for other players. With signalling and breadcrumbing, that simply isn't the case.
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Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:00 am

I'm grateful to have learned this before accidentally signing up for or replacing into one of your games.
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Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:36 am

In post 56, MichelSableheart wrote:As an example: In a game I played a couple of years ago, I was a mafia role cop, and had claimed role cop publicly. I knew I was going to claim a fake guilty on a player, and I knew there was a significant risk of that play backfiring. So I decided a simple rule with my mafia partners: If my investigation that night was vanilla, I would start my first post that day with a vote. If my investigation showed powerrole, I would end my first post with a vote instead. There is simply no way for town to spot that difference. "Vote [player], I have a guilty" and "I have a guilty, therefore Vote [player]" are both completely logical ways to write such a post. Yet my scumpartners would get to know the most crucial part of my investigation. That is the equivalent of a private exchange of information.

The thing for me is that there's nothing at all 'unrealistic' about this exchange of information. It's the sort of thing anyone could set up in real life and then use in real life. According to legend, actual mafiosi introduce new people as either "a friend of ours" or "a friend of mine" depending on whether they're in the loop or not. When they are arrested and charged, the prosecutor doesn't add "And furthermore he used a secret code, which is totally cheating, you guys."

I realize Mafia is not exactly a simulation of reality, but somehow this point still seems relevant.
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Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:28 am

In post 56, MichelSableheart wrote:They allow the exchange of private information without the other players even knowing that information is being exchanged. That's functionally equivalent to daytalk.

As an example: In a game I played a couple of years ago, I was a mafia role cop, and had claimed role cop publicly. I knew I was going to claim a fake guilty on a player, and I knew there was a significant risk of that play backfiring. So I decided a simple rule with my mafia partners: If my investigation that night was vanilla, I would start my first post that day with a vote. If my investigation showed powerrole, I would end my first post with a vote instead. There is simply no way for town to spot that difference. "Vote [player], I have a guilty" and "I have a guilty, therefore Vote [player]" are both completely logical ways to write such a post. Yet my scumpartners would get to know the most crucial part of my investigation. That is the equivalent of a private exchange of information.

Similarly, it is simply unfeasible to check every single post in a 50 page day 1 for possible breadcrumbs with multiple possible ways of signaling. Yet when a player points out a breadcrumb, it is relatively simple to check that it's there, and it's impossible for that to be accidental. Sure, breadcrumbs might be found from time to time, but that doesn't happen often. And when they don't get found, they have the exact same effect as cryptography: It's provable that you posted the information now, but the information only becomes public at a later time.

I feel that the information in the public thread should be deducible for other players. With signalling and breadcrumbing, that simply isn't the case.


I still disagree that it is a private exchange. The exchange of private information has already happened, in a private thread. The other players weren't present, and therefore would not know of what has been discussed, and won't understand the meaning behind the scums/masons posts, which makes sense. Example, if I naked voted a player, no player would understand the meaning of it. They can't deduce much from it unless I explain it later. Let's apply your example to mine. If I had a PR result, I'd use a naked vote. If I had vanilla result, I'd use a reason. I don't think that is against any rules.

Also, your example seems passable even by your own standards. I mean, that's one way to go around bread crumbing and it is legitimate. Everyone can see the vote, and read it. That is another example of subjective interpretation. The only thing that is present there is lying/omitting which is allowed, because mafia have to lie to survive. Plus, bread crumbing can be deciphered (most times) without having to learn how to read a bread crumb. Although I can give you that it isn't inherent for everyone, only for experienced players.

I wonder, how do you apply this as a rule? When and where do you enforce it? Is it possible to go around your ruling?

In post 57, House wrote:I'm grateful to have learned this before accidentally signing up for or replacing into one of your games.


It's not a big deal. At least, for me it isn't, since I rarely crumb.

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Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:06 am

But as a town cop, should you be able to crumb/soft, because you're not specifically exchanging information with certain people?
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Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:57 am

In post 49, kuribo wrote:
In post 47, mastin2 wrote:(Not as a mason, but as other roles, like ascetic. For someone who's done it before as scum, see kuribo.)




for next-level scumplay, breadcrumb several roles in the event you need to re-evaluate your claim later down the line

The highest level is not crumbing anything and convincing town a post you made earlier that wasn't a crumb was a crumb
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

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Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:01 am

In post 61, Accountant wrote:
In post 49, kuribo wrote:
In post 47, mastin2 wrote:(Not as a mason, but as other roles, like ascetic. For someone who's done it before as scum, see kuribo.)




for next-level scumplay, breadcrumb several roles in the event you need to re-evaluate your claim later down the line

The highest level is not crumbing anything and convincing town a post you made earlier that wasn't a crumb was a crumb


Such shenanigans are generally easy to spot for what they are.
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Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:20 am

well I guess if you were good enough to pull that off you could probably sell a crumbless claim anyway
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You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:41 am

In post 59, Ranmaru wrote:
In post 56, MichelSableheart wrote:[...]


I still disagree that it is a private exchange. The exchange of private information has already happened, in a private thread. The other players weren't present, and therefore would not know of what has been discussed, and won't understand the meaning behind the scums/masons posts, which makes sense. Example, if I naked voted a player, no player would understand the meaning of it. They can't deduce much from it unless I explain it later. Let's apply your example to mine. If I had a PR result, I'd use a naked vote. If I had vanilla result, I'd use a reason. I don't think that is against any rules.
The difference between your naked vote and the example I give, is that your naked vote is clearly visible to everyone. The other players may not be aware WHY you're making that vote, but they do know THAT you're making that vote. By contrast, in the case of breadcrumbing, it's not just that they don't know the meaning, but also that they don't know the information is there in the first place.

I wonder, how do you apply this as a rule? When and where do you enforce it? Is it possible to go around your ruling?

The ruleset I used in previous games included the following rule:
It is also not allowed to use coding, small or invisible text to hide information in your messages inside the thread. (note that coding includes simple codes such as hiding a word in the first letters of each paragraph of a post)

My basic assumption regarding enforcement is that players will follow the rules I set out, and not cheat. In the below, I assume that the rulebreaking was unintentional. If I feel it was intentional despite knowing it was against the rules, that player will be dealt with by force replace/modkill (depending on the impact on the integrity of the game), be blacklisted, and reported to the listmod for further review.

If a player makes a breadcrumb but nobody ever references it, I won't notice, and therefore won't enforce. That's fine, as that breadcrumb did not affect the game in any way.

If a scum, mason or neighbour team discusses breadcrumbing in their private topic, I will point out the existence of the rule, and my interpretation of it. This should again prevent the breadcrumb from affecting the game, and therefore needs no stronger reinforcement then that.

If a player makes a breadcrumb, and that breadcrumb becomes public info and gets discussed, there is a potential problem regarding game integrity. In that situation, it's possible that players have received information they should not have received. In that case, I will estimate the impact this particular crumb has had on the game. Depending on my estimation, I may give a (public or private) warning not to do that again if I feel it didn't have much impact, or I may modkill the player who broke the rules if his actions gave his team a significant advantage.
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Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:45 am

acrostic breadcrumbing isn't as good as implication breadcrumbing(eg. being very suspicious of someone Day 1, then calling them confirmed town day 2, or saying that you're sure someone is scum but tight lipped about why). Even better, it's a form of breadcrumbing that other townies can find for themselves, and if a townie finds your breadcrumb rather than you exposing it, you're far more likely to be believed.

I seem to remember slipping out of a lynch by obstinately repeating that "I will not be lynched today, so we should be focusing on finding real scum to lynch instead", and watching the town quietly unvote because they thought it was a softclaim and didn't want to out me.
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:49 pm

In post 61, Accountant wrote:
In post 49, kuribo wrote:
In post 47, mastin2 wrote:(Not as a mason, but as other roles, like ascetic. For someone who's done it before as scum, see kuribo.)




for next-level scumplay, breadcrumb several roles in the event you need to re-evaluate your claim later down the line

The highest level is not crumbing anything and convincing town a post you made earlier that wasn't a crumb was a crumb


No that's poor planning.
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Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:52 pm

Unless you're scum.
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Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:53 pm

In post 64, MichelSableheart wrote:
In post 59, Ranmaru wrote:
In post 56, MichelSableheart wrote:[...]


I still disagree that it is a private exchange. The exchange of private information has already happened, in a private thread. The other players weren't present, and therefore would not know of what has been discussed, and won't understand the meaning behind the scums/masons posts, which makes sense. Example, if I naked voted a player, no player would understand the meaning of it. They can't deduce much from it unless I explain it later. Let's apply your example to mine. If I had a PR result, I'd use a naked vote. If I had vanilla result, I'd use a reason. I don't think that is against any rules.
The difference between your naked vote and the example I give, is that your naked vote is clearly visible to everyone. The other players may not be aware WHY you're making that vote, but they do know THAT you're making that vote. By contrast, in the case of breadcrumbing, it's not just that they don't know the meaning, but also that they don't know the information is there in the first place.

I wonder, how do you apply this as a rule? When and where do you enforce it? Is it possible to go around your ruling?

The ruleset I used in previous games included the following rule:
It is also not allowed to use coding, small or invisible text to hide information in your messages inside the thread. (note that coding includes simple codes such as hiding a word in the first letters of each paragraph of a post)

My basic assumption regarding enforcement is that players will follow the rules I set out, and not cheat. In the below, I assume that the rulebreaking was unintentional. If I feel it was intentional despite knowing it was against the rules, that player will be dealt with by force replace/modkill (depending on the impact on the integrity of the game), be blacklisted, and reported to the listmod for further review.

If a player makes a breadcrumb but nobody ever references it, I won't notice, and therefore won't enforce. That's fine, as that breadcrumb did not affect the game in any way.

If a scum, mason or neighbour team discusses breadcrumbing in their private topic, I will point out the existence of the rule, and my interpretation of it. This should again prevent the breadcrumb from affecting the game, and therefore needs no stronger reinforcement then that.

If a player makes a breadcrumb, and that breadcrumb becomes public info and gets discussed, there is a potential problem regarding game integrity. In that situation, it's possible that players have received information they should not have received. In that case, I will estimate the impact this particular crumb has had on the game. Depending on my estimation, I may give a (public or private) warning not to do that again if I feel it didn't have much impact, or I may modkill the player who broke the rules if his actions gave his team a significant advantage.


There's really not an issue of integrity. There's no out of game state communication like in the case of encryption or font fuckery. It's something that exists solely within the bounds of the game and the game state.

Even the case of scum agreeing on a code with night talk is within the game state: they're allowed to talk at night. Any communication they have in the day thread as a result of that is still a part of the game state. It's no different than If scum said "okay tomorrow we're lynching Dave."
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Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:54 pm

In post 67, Gamma Emerald wrote:Unless you're scum.



Winging it as scum is no substitute for having an idea of what you want to accomplish.
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Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:15 pm

(Says the person who makes sport of fakeclaiming guilties on me when he's scum. :P)
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Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:40 pm

Yes but on the other hand I have a guilty on you

vote: mastin
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Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:57 pm

In post 71, kuribo wrote:Yes but on the other hand I have a guilty on you

vote: mastin


Sheeping the guilty.

VOTE: mastin
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Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:31 am

In post 69, kuribo wrote:
In post 67, Gamma Emerald wrote:Unless you're scum.



Winging it as scum is no substitute for having an idea of what you want to accomplish.

depends
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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