PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

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Post Post #250 (ISO) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:35 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 242, kuribo wrote:And honestly I'm on the side of releasing scum PTs. And the games I mod (at least the ones where I'm not a part of a modding hydra) come with the expectation that it will one day be public.

It's not like you're using some super secret strategy that no one will ever see: next time you play together, your scum buddy could just as easily say "oh the PT was closed but when we were scum together he said..."
If your scum strategy is so fragile that you can't have the PT publicized, then it's a shit strategy and you should evaluate it. If your scum PT involves you shit talking, then why are you so worried about it being publicized? Your scum buddy could just as easily say "oh yeah Kuribo said you're an ugly turd." If it's because you were arguing with your scum buddy and things got out of hand, hey I get it. I been there. But suck it up and man up to the shit you did to alienate your teammate. Or show the world what a dick they were. Whichever.

If you don't want the things you say in a scum PT publicized, you shouldn't be saying them to some rando that happens to share your alignment in this one game.
and we will give them 1 day and ill let the players deal with it

I - as a mod won't give a fuck for this -

if you want to make pt's released ork on "Players" culture as it shouldn't be "moderator" responsibility
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Post Post #251 (ISO) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:37 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 244, drealmerz7 wrote:
In post 242, kuribo wrote: If your scum strategy is so fragile that you can't have the PT publicized, then it's a shit strategy and you should evaluate it.
Thats non of your buissness as a mod to control this

scum are free to play hoever the fuck they want to play

and drama might rise from the "little stuff" not fragile ones
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Post Post #252 (ISO) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:38 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 246, chamber wrote:The argument in favor that I have is that it helps give context to the game as a whole. You can better understand exactly what happened and why. This is the same for say, why reveal what roles existed in the game. Or night actions.
yes

a mod should try to do this

No one said anything against this
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Post Post #253 (ISO) » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:28 am

Post by Ankamius »

I read through the thread again and still haven't seen a single good reason why it's a good idea to not release scum PTs.
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Post Post #254 (ISO) » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:33 am

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 253, Ankamius wrote:I read through the thread again and still haven't seen a single good reason why it's a good idea to not release scum PTs.
cause no one said they shouln't stay hidden?

giving 1 day delay to releasing it and giving the option to modify its content is not hiding it forevere
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Post Post #255 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:24 pm

Post by mastina »

My stance on hydra PTs: they tend to be cross-game, thus, not released.
If it's a mod-created hydra PT (and thus, game specific): release only with the explicit permission of the hydra.

Otherwise: I'm going to release the PT. Masons, neighbors, scum, doesn't matter.

If you said something you didn't want someone to hear: you shouldn't have said it in the first place. What's said in private is still said, and should be held accountable.
If you said something personal about your life, request redaction and it'll be given, but you must specifically request said redaction, because if you don't specifically request redaction, I'm going to assume it's okay to release it.
If you want to keep your super sekrit scum strategy hidden: you're an idiot.
It's pretty much that simple. So I release them. No questions asked, really.
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Post Post #256 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:26 am

Post by Ankamius »

In post 254, Frozen Angel wrote:
In post 253, Ankamius wrote:I read through the thread again and still haven't seen a single good reason why it's a good idea to not release scum PTs.
cause no one said they shouln't stay hidden?

giving 1 day delay to releasing it and giving the option to modify its content is not hiding it forevere
I'm not talking to temporarily keeping them hidden and releasing them later, that's actually the way I would do it myself. I'm talking about not releasing the PTs at all.
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Post Post #257 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:40 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

In post 255, mastina wrote:If you said something you didn't want someone to hear: you shouldn't have said it in the first place. What's said in private is still said, and should be held accountable.
In post 54, TheButtonmen wrote:people dont take honest talk very well, ive had scum qts where we discuss who the shittiest town players are so we could leave them alive and how we can manipulate them best and boy oh boy did they not like that post-game

how would you honestly react to a qt where people are discussing how much terrible you are at the game and how they can best fuck with you to make you rage or lurk for instance
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Post Post #258 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:44 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

you keep saying this across multiple threads but im not buying it like how do you really think youd react to a page or three of us just fucking laying into your inability to play the game and talking about how to best put you on tilt and keep you there to keep you from scumhunting effectively or where sit around lauging about how we keep getting you to spam the thead with vapid wall posts that are killing the readability of the game

do you really want to read that so badly
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Post Post #259 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:49 am

Post by drealmerz7 »

people don't take honest talk well because they are used to being coddled and people not being straight with them (probably starting with their parents/whoever raised them and growing from that)

it's not something you should feed into, it's something they need to get used to / over

AND it is a game on the internet with mostly strangers and semi-acquaintances, if you can't handle the shit that is said, mafia is not for you

look at gerryoat and myself as a great example - I talked at length in PYP doubledeck about his badtown play and how to utilize it to win the game - I manipulated people in hoods talking about it and we talked about it in scumchat, and then I was outright direct with it in the game thread at times with stuff like "scum is leaving gerry alive because he's bad and likely to throw the game if given a chance" and shit like that - it's simply part of the game
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Post Post #260 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:50 am

Post by drealmerz7 »

In post 258, TheButtonmen wrote:
do you really want to read that so badly
absolutely, it's game-relevant and I like to see how/why the game unfolded how it unfolded

it also gives insight into YOUR play, and how you might do things in future games, all very important to know

it is not about the individuals anymore at that point, it's about the overall picture of the game - which should be available for all to see
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Post Post #261 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:52 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

that part i get its a fair argument

im referencing her accountable part if you go hunting for shit to be offended by then youre going to find it
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Post Post #262 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:55 am

Post by drealmerz7 »

if you go hunting for shit to be offended by then you're a drama queen and you can GTFO
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Post Post #263 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:56 am

Post by Katsuki »

People want truth yet have a stunning inability to accept it when faced with it.

Releasing scum PTs by default are dumb especially since PTs do not allow us to edit our posts like QTs did.
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Post Post #264 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:56 am

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In post 262, drealmerz7 wrote:if you go hunting for shit to be offended by then you're a drama queen and you can GTFO
welcome to humanity
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Post Post #265 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:06 am

Post by drealmerz7 »

In post 264, Katsuki wrote:
In post 262, drealmerz7 wrote:if you go hunting for shit to be offended by then you're a drama queen and you can GTFO
welcome to humanity
welcome to me, striving to change humanity by not feeding in to the shit that perpetuates the bad parts
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Post Post #266 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:41 am

Post by mastina »

In post 258, TheButtonmen wrote:like how do you really think youd react to a page or three of us just fucking laying into your inability to play the game and talking about how to best put you on tilt and keep you there to keep you from scumhunting effectively
Welcome to my life?
It already happens in public.

If a player is shitty, then it's not something that's going to exist behind closed doors (like honestly do you think I don't know how people treat me just because a PT isn't released?)--they'll be known to be shitty in public, too. They'll have people noting it constantly reminding them at every step of the way. What's one more location where it happens?

If you say something which crosses the line, that shouldn't have been said in the first place.
If you say something harsh (this player is shitty, etc.), that's something that the player is likely to already know anyway.
If they don't know you hold that stance and when they read that, their reaction is on them--not on you. They either own up to it and try to improve or they don't own up to it. If they don't own up to it, then you wash your hands of responsibility.
If they think a line has been crossed, then they report it to a moderator--if they fail to do this, if instead of reporting it to a moderator they harass you, then you're in a position where YOU get to report THEM for their harassment.

It's really that simple. Content was either appropriate, or inappropriate. If it was inappropriate, the proper channel to communicate this is through a moderator. If a user decides to harass a player for their content, then that harassment is always inappropriate and thus something that can be communicated to a moderator.

We have the report function for a reason. We have moderators for a reason. They are there specifically for instances like this: to moderate by the definition of that word, be an arbiter, a neutral unbiased third party to resolve the conflict. And moderators have generally laid out the guidelines here pretty well:

It's not okay to call a person a sack of shit. However, you are well within your rights (and it's even expected!) to call that person's PLAY a sack of shit. The number of people who don't seem to understand this simple distinction is mind-boggling. A player in a mafia PT is doing the latter: voicing their opinion on what a player's play is like. They are not doing the former, voicing their opinion on what a person is like. If they did, they crossed the line and that content should be reported.

The guidelines for which are which are also reasonably clear. Perhaps not as clear as they could be, but reasonably clear as well--we don't use 'retarded' even to refer to play, for instance. These rules aren't hard to understand and they aren't hard to follow. 99% of scum players follow these rules. At least 75% of mafiascum users understand these rules.
do you really want to read that so badly
As a matter of fact, yes I do. A mafia PT is a part of the game--so when a game concludes, it will be released because it was a part of that game. It is specific to that game. It is not something which will ever be reused. It is something which was a tool for that game and that game alone. Seeing how the scum were thinking is giving a huge piece of the narrative of the game. I am still at my heart a storyteller...and if you don't have a clue what a third of the characters in your story were doing behind closed doors, you lose the immersion factor. They enrich the game experience, enhancing the story.

If a player doesn't like what's said in the PT, tough. They report it to a moderator (if they feel it crossed a line), or they grow a thick skin, or they avoid the player who said those things to them. If a player harasses the person who said those things, the person being harassed is within their rights to report the player harassing them.

I have zero sympathy for whiners. A game is a game. A single game. What was said in the game stays to that game as far as I'm concerned. It applied to that game. The scum player deemed a person to be a shitty player for that specific game. Or maybe the scum player predicted that a person would be a shitty player for that specific game. (Fuck I do that all the time via my psychological profiling.) It can be harsh, but it is their opinion off of past and present data, relevant to the current game. The scum posting those things are aware of this. They are aware that what they say is relevant to the current game. So the player reading it later should also have that awareness--and if they don't, that's their issue. Not the issue of the scum player.
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Post Post #267 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:47 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

I appreciate the option whether to release PTs or not when scum, although the most important part for me is moderators making their policy extra extra clear in the PT.

When I've preferred for PTs not to be released, usually it's because I'm talking about personal stuff with a scumpartner (redacting it before release is all and good but I'd rather not have to comb through a scum PT and figure out everything I feel comfortable about vs everything I don't feel comfortably about). I don't think people who don't want to out scum strategies are just dumb; sometimes I mention an idea for a fakeclaim to a scumpartner and then decide I might want to use it in the future (and thus would rather limit people who read that I have an idea for a fakeclaim), sometimes I'm trying to figure out how to manipulate a person in particular and don't really want to give them a warning shot beforehand. I understand the argument for people who want to vent about goings-on in the game but don't necessarily want to start shit or hurt people's feelings post-game.
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Post Post #268 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:17 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

I like to go in PT's and ctrl F ranmaru. I guess I'm always leaning towards releasing it over not because:

1. It's fun to read them.
2. I'm an open person, so I don't mind releasing my own. In the same manner that I play a fighting game, I go all out all the time.
3. I can improve myself as town looking for scum who knows what scum think.

I can understand not wanting to out personal things, but I feel a compromise should be decided upon. It may be annoying to have to comb through things before release, but I feel that's the best that can be done while giving those who have said things they don't want to be seen the ability to redact it. I always say things expecting people to see my responses. I use it to show my true self. Probably even more true than my town self, as there is some self-editing that needs to be done before posting.
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Post Post #269 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:20 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

In post 258, TheButtonmen wrote:do you really want to read that so badly
Yes. Then I'd be enlightened. I'd be like "shit I was fooled into spamming, this is something I can learn from." I agree with what Chamber said.
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Post Post #270 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:11 pm

Post by kuribo »

I don't wanna quote mastin's wall but I remember the shock I felt when I read her assessment of my play during her scum game: she said the best way to deal with town-me was to let me push mislynch after mislynch and to hope I get so angry that I replace out. And you know what? She was absolutely right. I always remember that before going on a thread destroying rampage and as a result, I've become a better player.

It goes both ways. If you're uncomfortable finding out why your play is crap, you were never willing to learn. Sometimes other players are at their most honest during the heat of raw emotion. like, it stung a little to see it put out there like that: mastina would never try and push me to overreact and rage quit, but her acknowledgment was that if it happened it happened. This was a bitter pill to swallow at first but I learned from it.
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Post Post #271 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:14 pm

Post by Killthestory »

if someone is telling you what you're doing wrong you're not learning. you're just listening. one must be introspective enough to evaluate their own play and truly make the connection
where do i need to improve.
you don't really improve by having people talk shit about you in their qt. you just hurt inside. i mean, it kinds of does wake you up too but you have to make that connection. if you don't want to make that connection yourself, then you shouldn't have someone tell you it. same with vice versa, and i think what kuribo is describing is that he really got into his mafia game and really wanted to be a better player, but @Kuribo, were you able to recognize in part of what mastin had said about you before reading it? i'm sure you knew some of your mistakes, but she just articulated it better. i believe that if you had truly thought about it, you'd have realized that anger is your toughest opponent in the game of mafia. she need not say it to you for you to figure it out. you're a smart enough guy. qt with people talking analytical shit about you being released always is not needed.

and drealms you can play 'i don't care what people say to me i just want to learn' card but i can say as a very successful troll no everyone hurts when someone calls them a name even if you think it's funny at the time.
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Post Post #272 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

I disagree, partly. You can learn from someone else describing your play. I can give you that self-reflection should be part of your play, in any game that is competitive. I haven't thought about that for mafia, when I've learned to do that for games like splatoon, or smash bros melee. It's funny because I'd do the same thing here as I do in tournaments for smash bros. "Hey so what mistakes did I make from your perspective?" Like, yes I'm commiting some action but I'm not watching myself play, I'm observing the other player. It's easier for me to remember their actions over mine. I see nothing wrong with listening to someone else describe your play or even give you advice from their own perspective. Of course forum mafia is documented so I could re-read and make an effort to find my own mistakes myself, not a bad idea. I don't think it should be one or the other, though. So in conclusion I feel self-reflection and peer reflection together is better than either one by itself. (Which I may try to factor in in the future)

By the way, the 'you just hurt inside' actually gives you enough spark to actually change. Your pride is wounded, and you must then make steps to protect it.
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Post Post #273 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:44 pm

Post by Killthestory »

yeah you're right i thought about that counter argument but was too lazy to really think of an opposing response

really though if you want constructed response like that you should just ask someone instead of reading it in an unhealthy way that'll make you sad
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Post Post #274 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:45 pm

Post by Cerberus v666 »

In post 273, Killthestory wrote:yeah you're right i thought about that counter argument but was too lazy to really think of an opposing response

really though if you want constructed response like that you should just ask someone instead of reading it in an unhealthy way that'll make you sad
This doesn't work.

It's quite rare to get a response if you post a request for critiques post game.
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