PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

[MagnaofIllusion]

One of the odd things I have noticed since returning is that Mods generally ask if Mafia PTs (and other types like Neighborhoods but Mafia tend to be the sticking point) can be released.

Why is this a thing? I used to understand back in the day with QTs not being integrated into the site but now that clearly isn't an issue.

I'm completely serious in this question. If you are saying things in a PT that you would not want made public simply don't say them. And I don't buy the "scum game secret tactics" argument either.

So please enlighten this grumpy old man ...

[mykonian]

Because as scum I just love calling someone crappy. Because they are, and I'm going to plan with my buddies to use it. I may not want to speak the same terms publicly.

Better question, why do you need to know?

[Ircher]

i agree wuth mli

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because as scum I just love calling someone crappy. Because they are, and I'm going to plan with my buddies to use it. I may not want to speak the same terms publicly.

Better question, why do you need to know?

Forums Mafia is a game of information. After the game is complete Town players should have access to all the information everyone else does to help improve their own game. Same with Mason PTs for scum's improvement attempts.

If your reasoning is "I want to call people bad privately" ... well ... if you can't say it where they can see it probably you should not be saying it at all.

[zoraster]

Mafia start the game with the idea that what they're saying is private. Saying mean but potentially true things about a town player might be useful. But having to deal with the fallout after isn't that much fun. I'd prefer my mafia players to talk a lot and be pretty free with what they say rather than watch their words because someone from town wants to indulge their curiosity after the game.

I don't think the town has any inherent right to see the mafia PT.

[zoraster]

If your reasoning is "I want to call people bad privately" ... well ... if you can't say it where they can see it probably you should not be saying it at all.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

[Untrod Tripod]

Because as scum I just love calling someone crappy. Because they are, and I'm going to plan with my buddies to use it. I may not want to speak the same terms publicly.

Better question, why do you need to know?

Forums Mafia is a game of information. After the game is complete Town players should have access to all the information everyone else does to help improve their own game. Same with Mason PTs for scum's improvement attempts.

If your reasoning is "I want to call people bad privately" ... well ... if you can't say it where they can see it probably you should not be saying it at all.

I actually remember a time five or six years ago I was trash talking you in a QT to psyche myself/my teammates up and you got pretty upset about it when the QT was released.

sometimes private trash talk (even if it's not totally accurate) is what you need to get over the hump against a tough opponent. I can relate to people not wanting that public.

[FakeGod]

You may go over the moves made to find your own mistakes, but your opponent is not required to open up his mind for you to see, or obliged in any way to help you improve your play.

[Zachrulez]

Mafia start the game with the idea that what they're saying is private. Saying mean but potentially true things about a town player might be useful. But having to deal with the fallout after isn't that much fun. I'd prefer my mafia players to talk a lot and be pretty free with what they say rather than watch their words because someone from town wants to indulge their curiosity after the game.

I don't think the town has any inherent right to see the mafia PT.

Site culture can easily be changed to expect the PT to be released.

There's also a difference between pointing out a town player's weakness and being downright malicious on what you say about the player. People should be able to handle the former while the latter isn't exactly something I think we should be going out of our way to protect the privacy of just because it's hiding behind the context of a game.

[zoraster]

Well, that would be a move of site culture I would not be in favor of.

Should or not, some people will react negatively to even an honest evaluation that's bereft of any malice.

[Zachrulez]

I don't disagree that people will react negatively to even non malicious criticism. I would argue that mafia is not really the game for them.

Anyway as a mod I fully intend to release all private topics in my game, I suppose that is something I will need to make known more explicitly if I ever run games again. (Which I assume I will do at some point in the future.)

[mykonian]

Because as scum I just love calling someone crappy. Because they are, and I'm going to plan with my buddies to use it. I may not want to speak the same terms publicly.

Better question, why do you need to know?

Forums Mafia is a game of information. After the game is complete Town players should have access to all the information everyone else does to help improve their own game. Same with Mason PTs for scum's improvement attempts.

If your reasoning is "I want to call people bad privately" ... well ... if you can't say it where they can see it probably you should not be saying it at all.

I do not care for your improvement. You already think you are awesome, so why would you even bother.

[Nexus]

I have never given people a choice - I tend to just release them, not ever experienced any actual problems with people being too mad about it. I consider it my perogative as the game mod.

[Firebringer]

I am kind of the opinion, don't say anything in a PT that you wouldn't say in a normal game thread.
But of course, I am pretty blunt with people on my opinions of them so like it doesn't change the content of what I say at all.

And people have gotten upset over what I said about them in a PT.

[Psyche]

I think it's a mod discretion thing. There are pros and cons to both practices.

[Postie]

And I don't buy the "scum game secret tactics" argument either.

Why?

I mean, I get you want to learn from what the scumteam were thinking, but if someone wants to tell their scumbuddies how they're making use of particular tactics, and they frequently do those things as scum, then knowing you'll be able to view the PT post-game is just going to make them not explain those things to their team, which hinders the quality of communication among scum and results in a worse learning experience for the scumteam.

I think people are also more likely to open up to their scumteam about real-life situations and deeper feelings about certain things (which doesn't necessarily include bad-mouthing others) that they might not feel comfortable exposing to a large group of people, and I don't think anyone is entitled to have access to those thoughts.

[Shadow_step]

If saying foul things is a problem. The player can ask the mod to either edit the post(edit out the the insults) or simply delete the posts after the game is over.

I don't how that is a problem. I am in favour of every PT being released so that players can improve on their game.

[Shadow_step]

And I don't buy the "scum game secret tactics" argument either.

Why?

I mean, I get you want to learn from what the scumteam were thinking, but if someone wants to tell their scumbuddies how they're making use of particular tactics, and they frequently do those things as scum, then knowing you'll be able to view the PT post-game is just going to make them not explain those things to their team, which hinders the quality of communication among scum and results in a worse learning experience for the scumteam.

I think people are also more likely to open up to their scumteam about real-life situations and deeper feelings about certain things (which doesn't necessarily include bad-mouthing others) that they might not feel comfortable exposing to a large group of people, and I don't think anyone is entitled to have access to those thoughts.

If scum are worried about being caught out the next game they play as scum because people will figure that is what they do as scum aka meta.
Then that stops any improvement and that's just dumb.

[Accountant]

I auto release PTs unless the mafia team has a compelling reason why they don't want me to release it(eg. they trash talked someone in the PT, personal secrets were shared). I think it's important that players get to learn.

[FakeGod]

I have a question.

Does anyone in this thread actually believe that Scum PT should be released

against

the scum team's will?

Like, you are modding a game, and the scum team tells you

not to release the scum PT

, would you release it anyway?

[Postie]

If scum are worried about being caught out the next game they play as scum because people will figure that is what they do as scum aka meta.
Then that stops any improvement and that's just dumb.

Trying to stay one step ahead of your opponent is part of the game; both in the short-term and long-term.

Scale that principle down to a single game for a minute. Let's say I need to get both Bouba and Kiki mislynched at some point to win. I have enough towncred in the bank to successfully hardpush one mislynch through with minimal consequences - if I try my luck again after that, people will probably be suspicious of me and lynch me for it. I also know that Bouba and Kiki have interacted with each other in a way that most people think must be either TvT or SvS, so after the first townflip, the second lynch will be considerably harder to push through.
Do I use my hardpush on the first person I want to take care of? Of course not; I'm going to save it for the game-ending mislynch.
But following your logic about it being "dumb" and stopping improvement for me to not want others to use my previous behaviour to catch me out later on, I should just go ahead and deathtunnel one of them right away. Is that what you'd recommend I do in this situation? And if not, why should I compromise my long-term play in any other situation?

[Firebringer]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is obligated really to help someone improve as a player, or peak inside what a player who is scum is thinking.
Though I will say, its highly unlikely that players who read the scum PT will learn anything to improve themselves, except just ways in which those specific players play in scum situations.
So they get better at beating THOSE players.

[Shadow_step]

If scum are worried about being caught out the next game they play as scum because people will figure that is what they do as scum aka meta.
Then that stops any improvement and that's just dumb.

Trying to stay one step ahead of your opponent is part of the game; both in the short-term and long-term.

Scale that principle down to a single game for a minute. Let's say I need to get both Bouba and Kiki mislynched at some point to win. I have enough towncred in the bank to successfully hardpush one mislynch through with minimal consequences - if I try my luck again after that, people will probably be suspicious of me and lynch me for it. I also know that Bouba and Kiki have interacted with each other in a way that most people think must be either TvT or SvS, so after the first townflip, the second lynch will be considerably harder to push through.
Do I use my hardpush on the first person I want to take care of? Of course not; I'm going to save it for the game-ending mislynch.
But following your logic about it being "dumb" and stopping improvement for me to not want others to use my previous behaviour to catch me out later on, I should just go ahead and deathtunnel one of them right away. Is that what you'd recommend I do in this situation? And if not, why should I compromise my long-term play in any other situation?

That is a wifom argument really. I did this so and ao as scum in the last game, I would do it again? Yes it my meta? No, im not that dumb.

[Postie]

That is a wifom argument really. I did this so and ao as scum in the last game, I would do it again? Yes it my meta? No, im not that dumb.

What? If someone has a history of employing a particular tactic designed to further scum's wincon as scum and you see them do it in a game you're in together, that is a valid reason to scumread them.

[Shadow_step]

If scum are worried about being caught out the next game they play as scum because people will figure that is what they do as scum aka meta.
Then that stops any improvement and that's just dumb.

Trying to stay one step ahead of your opponent is part of the game; both in the short-term and long-term.

Scale that principle down to a single game for a minute. Let's say I need to get both Bouba and Kiki mislynched at some point to win. I have enough towncred in the bank to successfully hardpush one mislynch through with minimal consequences - if I try my luck again after that, people will probably be suspicious of me and lynch me for it. I also know that Bouba and Kiki have interacted with each other in a way that most people think must be either TvT or SvS, so after the first townflip, the second lynch will be considerably harder to push through.
Do I use my hardpush on the first person I want to take care of? Of course not; I'm going to save it for the game-ending mislynch.
But following your logic about it being "dumb" and stopping improvement for me to not want others to use my previous behaviour to catch me out later on, I should just go ahead and deathtunnel one of them right away. Is that what you'd recommend I do in this situation? And if not, why should I compromise my long-term play in any other situation?

I have a question.

Does anyone in this thread actually believe that Scum PT should be released

against

the scum team's will?

Like, you are modding a game, and the scum team tells you

not to release the scum PT

, would you release it anyway?

I think the mods should just announce at the beginning of the game that the scum PT will be released when the game ends. You can do whatever the hell you want but it will be released.
To answer the question I might release it cause I love playing devil's advocate lol