Why is a miller explicitly normal, but a godfather is not?

[ThinkBig]

I was reading through the wiki page on nornal games and was surprised to see that The Godfather was explicitly not nornal, but the miller was explicitly normal. Why is this? In most games I have played, the miller and godfather usually appeared together in order to throw off powerful town roles and to cancel each other out.

I personally think it is time to ban millers from normal games.

[mykonian]

I mean, they don't cancel another out, don't really need to be a pair.

There are two main differences, though you aren't wrong that in essence it's maybe not a normal role. One is that in normal games the miller knows he is one: he can claim. Godfathers have a tendency to not do that, very annoying. This already limits the potential damage of the role, but does mean scum can fakeclaim it and potentially get away with play despite there being a cop in the game. The second is that a guilty on a town is "just" a mislynch. An inno on a scum potentially loses you the game.

At some point the miller may fall, but it comes down to the argument that kept the GF, the framers in normals for a while, and even have had people discuss sanities: the cop is a really strong role that's hard to deal with. Miller of that list is hardly the most troublesome, involves the fewest lies.

[The MM]

I think it has something to do that the Godfather is a really strong role, borderline overpowered due to the consequences of an innocent ping on them.

In closed setups, this is a near-sure townkiller because you have to expect a godfather at all to hunt for them.
And even when you have an open setup, hunting for a Godfather may cause Cop results to be dubious.

Sure, the Cop doesn't have to be right every time (else town-favouring game-breaking might occur), but the Godfather is too strong an answer to the Cop.

[Firebringer]

The reason godfather isn't allowed is because it isn't "reasonable" in the sense of what to expect.
If games had godfather as a regular role than people would be more questioning their cop results.

The reason its not wanted is because they want Cops to trust their results (Millers will announce who they are), and allowing godfather would be a hard nerf to Cop role as a whole. As would framer.

If godfather somehow become a regular used role outside of normals and site meta change it could become normal.
Right now, Cops want to be able to trust their results. And most people don't like idea of getting false positives on something that they believe is not reasonable for them to expect.

[Davsto]

a guilty on a town is "just" a mislynch. An inno on a scum potentially loses you the game.

Pretty much this.

Also, it's one of those cases where only having one normal is fine, but having both normal basically makes cops worthless

That is to say, if millers are normal but godfathers not, you can always trust innocent results. If godfathers are normal but millers are not, you can always trust guilty results. If both are normal, you theoretically can't trust any cop results.

But yeah, it balances out that (a) believing a false guilty has a minor bad effect for the cop while believing a false innocent is game-losing, (b) if both are legal then cops are borderline useless, and (c) it's more fair for mafia for the one being normal allowing a guilty result to not immediately doom the investigated player.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why isn't Ninja blacklisted tho
As last scum it provides false positives too

[Gamma Emerald]

*negatives but still
Why

[Ircher]

Cuz tracker is a weaker role than Cop.

That's why Tracker+Doc works well in Matrix6 but Tracker+BP isn't quite as well balanced (more scumsided than the former)

[Ircher]

Plus, trackers who get innos don't necessarily clear the player. And, a normal reviewer would have to be insane to allow mafia to have a full ninja since mafia choose who performs the nk. Finally, watchers are extremely powerful and need a nerf of some kind -- Ninjas.

[RadiantCowbells]

The difference is that Millers can claim on day 1. Town is as a faction aware that that specific result is untrustworthy.

[Zachrulez]

Cuz tracker is a weaker role than Cop.

That's why Tracker+Doc works well in Matrix6 but Tracker+BP isn't quite as well balanced (more scumsided than the former)

That's not really a good argument for why one is normal and the other is not. They both throw a wrench into the results of another role in a way that can cost the town the game through night actions.

In fact it's probably even worse to allow a role that nerfs tracker to be normal specifically because the role is weaker to begin with.

Though honestly I never really agreed with blacklisting the godfather to begin with. (Though the only time I used the role was in games that didn't have a cop... so... *shrug*)

The difference is that Millers can claim on day 1. Town is as a faction aware that that specific result is untrustworthy.

Or they give into the meta of lynching a miller claim no matter what because it might be a scum fakeclaim...

The site's meta on millers only allows one acceptable way of playing the role as well which leads to role WIFOM on whether it's town playing honestly or scum fakeclaiming to destroy any value in a hypothetical cop ever investigating them. The current site meta makes miller implementation generally uninteresting because actually trying to play miller in an interesting way is frowned upon.

[Infinity 324]

Plus, trackers who get innos don't necessarily clear the player. And, a normal reviewer would have to be insane to allow mafia to have a full ninja since mafia choose who performs the nk. Finally, watchers are extremely powerful and need a nerf of some kind -- Ninjas.

This is the reason why ninja is allowed, especially the first sentence.

[Antihero]

Why isn't Ninja blacklisted tho
As last scum it provides false positives too

*negatives but still
Why

as a counter to the watcher role

ninja generally should never be used to counter a tracker

[mastina]

Yeah, ninjas are not a tracker counter.
Tracker is a weak investigative--near impossible to get a guilty, unless played

exactly

right, and hard to get innocents for. (Unless only one scum alive, the only innocent they can get is a visiting result to a player who doesn't die, which in a Normal game is

usually

a town PR.)

Watcher on the other hand is a gamebreaking role considered as strong as a cop. There's a reason full watchers almost never make it into games, and it's because a full watcher is basically one of the strongest town roles in existence that doesn't have a weakness or a stigma attached to it in the same way a cop does.

[Infinity 324]

True.

[Zachrulez]

I enjoy the fact that just because you guys think that ninja isn't a tracker counter that some mod won't use it as one.

[Ircher]

I enjoy the fact that just because you guys think that ninja isn't a tracker counter that some mod won't use it as one.

Hence the NRG.

[Gamma Emerald]

NRG?

[Ircher]

Normal Review Group.

[Zachrulez]

Which I'm sure won't stop the combo from happening.

[Ircher]

Then either the reviewers are bad or there's a reason due to the setup as a whole.

I mean, with 3 reviewers, that would probl be caught.

[Zachrulez]

Well I mean faith in the reviewers is one thing that's subjective...

Also the notion that it's impossible to have a balanced game with a Ninja/tracker combination in it is a bit presumptuous.

Yeah, ninjas are not a tracker counter.
Tracker is a weak investigative--near impossible to get a guilty, unless played

exactly

right, and hard to get innocents for. (Unless only one scum alive, the only innocent they can get is a visiting result to a player who doesn't die, which in a Normal game is

usually

a town PR.)

Watcher on the other hand is a gamebreaking role considered as strong as a cop. There's a reason full watchers almost never make it into games, and it's because a full watcher is basically one of the strongest town roles in existence that doesn't have a weakness or a stigma attached to it in the same way a cop does.

You say that it doesn't have a weakness or stigma, but your comment on it's lack of use contradicts that doesn't it?

It's also a pretty bad argument in favor of allowing a ninja role to counter it, because similar logic allowed for the creation of the godfather as a counter to the cop to begin with. (And millers, and sanities, ect.)

[mastina]

Which I'm sure won't stop the combo from happening.

Can't speak for every reviewer, but I can speak for myself:
Yes we will.

For that matter, ninjas aren't looked upon favorably with a gated watcher, either.

That might not stop us from, in theory, giving the scum a 1-shot ninja, but we sure as hell aren't going to give them a full ninja to counter a tracker or counter a gated watcher.

[mastina]

It's also a pretty bad argument in favor of allowing a ninja role to counter it, because similar logic allowed for the creation of the godfather as a counter to the cop to begin with. (And millers, and sanities, ect.)

The difference is in how the roles are counters.
If a cop gets an innocent on the godfather, scum win--the town's never lynching the godfather.
If a watcher doesn't get a guilty thanks to a ninja, they KNOW they were up against a ninja because the person they targeted died with nobody visiting.

[Zachrulez]

You can say it will never happen, but the truth is the guidelines allow it to, and as long as they do, it will be possible.

It also sends mixed messages when you have a role whitelisted but the review group in practice basically has the role blacklisted.