JEEP not withdrawing...

[Dasquian]

My sole worry is that the publication will spoil a lot of the currently-running games as people read JEEP's tells, and look back at days 1 and 2 and easily find the mafia/doc/cops etc.

[ages]

My sole worry is that the publication will spoil a lot of the currently-running games as people read JEEP's tells, and look back at days 1 and 2 and easily find the mafia/doc/cops etc.

That is a very good point. Of course in many games enough will have happened to make the tells less useful (cops coming out with info etc) but I agree that that will be an issue with the newer games. On the other hand if he doesn't reveal it, slowly more and more players will leanr to read the tells, and the game will lose its interest for them. Not good .

[Talitha]

I'm very sad that Jeep has decided to leave mafia under a cloud like this and I hope he comes back.

First let me say that I strongly believe that Jeep would not cheat. That being said, I have to admit that the possibility did cross my mind for a second when I saw him keep nailing bad guys in a couple of games. I quickly realised the thought was absurd, and I just hadn't realised what a good mafia player he is.

The one thing that I don't like about Jeep's abilities and playing style is that it turns the rest of the players into sheep, all following the leader. I could very quickly get extremely bored with a mafia game like that. And I do feel quite sorry for the scum in these games - no real accusations to answer, and no chance of saving themselves. So for these reasons I think that Jeep is right to either withdraw from games or publish his paper. (Doesn't have to be both.)

Jeep: Please don't feel like you have to publish the paper to clear your name. As you can see from the poll results, there is no significant number who think you're cheating, and your word that you're not should be enough.
If you want to publish the paper, do it so that a new generation of super-uber mafia players can start to emerge, and give you some decent competition when you play again

[Flying Dutchman]

We also have to keep in mind that Jeep doesn't play a lot of games, so if someone thinks he cheats, well, they can avoid playing games with him!

I don't see a problem here, if you believe he cheats, you can just avoid joining the few games he plays in!

[Gaspode]

I would never suspect for a moment that JEEP would cheat. In fact, in my eyes, he's been one of the leaders

for

integrity in mafia.

That said, I think it's a bit unfair to not give reasons for votes you make in games. Now I haven't read any of the games in question, so I may be completely wrong here, but if you start a bandwagon on someone, you should give reasons. Actually, I think it's more the stupidity of the first few towns to blindly follow you that is to blame--I know I would require a reason in order to jump on any non-day 1 bandwagon, even if it were started by the almighty Jeep.

I'm not saying, though, that you must give away all these "common tells". It would be completely fair for you to continue playing as you are now; a player is never

required

to disclose any of his strategies. But if keeping them to yourself makes the game less fun, by all means tell us your deductions.

As for the paper, I'm all for publishing it. It's a little depressing to know that we're all such bad players that someone can completely figure out the game like that, but publishing the paper may eliminate that problem. Plus, it seems like letting everyone in on Jeep's "secrets" would level the playing field and make the game more fun for all--especially Jeep. I'm a bit worried about the effect of the paper on games in progress, but the way I see it, it's your own fault if you were an obvious mafia or doc.

So basically what I'm saying is that I think the accusations are merely sore losers trying to make excuses for messing up in their games, and I think Jeep should do whatever he thinks is best for himself and/or the game when it comes to all the theory/ethics questions.

[Gaspode]

By the way, I hope you're planning to play again when the paper is completed. That's the way I read your post, and I couldn't see mafia being the same without you.

[edit]I think it might be worth mentioning that I just read through two games in which Jeep has made "strange" accusations and I think I see exactly where he is coming from and may have figured out one of his "common tells" already.[/edit]

[JereIC]

I hate follow the uber-player games as well, and one thing we could do to combat them is not reveal roles on death. The whole thing with an uber-player is that s/he's able to say "X is scum," get them lynched, and be proved right. If we take away the proving them right part, then there'll be serious questions the next time a player tries to just control the game by picking out scum.

[Dasquian]

Yuck, I hate no-roles-on-death games. The ones I've seen just become painful after a few days when you have no way of telling who's good and who isn't or how well you're doing, or any way to make associations, etc. They have their place, but I don't think they're the right solution to players who are a league ahead of everyone else.

[CurtainDog]

I never even considered the possibly of anyone on this site cheating until I saw this thread. Let alone someone as respected as jeep. It may sound trite but cheaters ruin the game for themselves more than anyone else. I am positive that jeep has done nothing wrong and he shouldn't feel pressured to publish this paper just to clear his name.

As for jeep publishing his paper I have mixed feelings. If he publishes it and people eliminate those tells from their games how long until jeep or someone else figures out a new set of tells. Or what if people start posting less because they're afraid they may say the wrong word or phrase and get themselves lynched. I'm all for a paper that teaches people to be more observant, but without delving into the individual cases.

I'll try to give a RL example. A common tell if someone is lying to you is that they'll scratch their eyebrow. It would be wrong to say that whenever someone scratches their eyebrow they are lying to you. Instead you could say that because it is harder to lie to someone's face, people who are lying will often try to break direct eye contact. I guess the difference is that one rule concerns actions while the other concerns motives, and I think that in this case the latter is more important.

[jeep]

I haven't finished reading up, but I guess I over-reacted...

So here's the scoop:
The paper WILL be written. It was planned long before I knew that someone thought I was cheating.

A person I respect greatly mentioned a concern that I might have gathered information illicitly.

I have reconsidered and will remain in games unless the mod of the game wishes me to withdraw.

Someone wondered if I could even cheat: I COULD cheat if I wanted to, but I don't. The only way I can get information illegally is to access the database directly. I do not do that often and I don't know that I've ever queried any part of the database other than the users table (which only contains profile information). I believe that another thread started here was accusing me of logging in as someone else- that cannot be done unless I change the password. That would make it obvious to the person who I logged in as.

-JEEP

[NanookTheWolf]

Well, since you plan on staying in your games, you think that you could get that Dr. Seuss game going anytime soon...

~Eagerly awaits.... ~

~Nanook-Wolf

[Wacky]

Just like to say that

1. I'm all for the paper
2. The idea that Jeep could be cheating is crazy.

I find it difficult to believe that mafia could still be fun if you knew all the roles for certain, so I find it difficult to believe that any reasonably mature player would *want* to cheat.

[Cadmium]

I'm shocked by this whole situation. First of all, I don't understand how someone could think of jeep as a cheater. What's that about? It has never crossed my mind and it never would have, if it wasn't for this thread. So jeep is using his admin powers to cheat? Well, then tell me how he plays exactly the same in mafia games on the GL? He can't even access the database over there.

This pisses me off.

[shadyforce]

I'm quite surprised at all of you. For people playing mafia games, which require logic, you sure as hell have stuck with the usually innaccurate gut instinct to decipher this puzzle. This bears enormous similarity to actual mafia games. Is he scum or is he not. Is he a cheat or is he not.

I am looking at it logically, and I'm making up my own mind based on how I find scum. I am not saying I believe he is cheating, I am not saying I believe he has always pleyed honestly. I'm keeping an open mind, just like MeMe and BBWD it seems. I suggest you all, rather than automatically assume he is telling the truth, or a few of you who automatically assume because he can cheat he will, keep an open mind.


As to the publishing of your paper, well you made up your mind, but for the record, I am another name against it's publication.

[Dasquian]

Keep an open mind, sure. But a moment's thought should convince anyone that everything points towards him being 100% honest and very, very good at mafia. He arguably has opportunity, but no reason to cheat and there are very very good reasons to believe he wouldn't ever stoop to that.

On the other hand it's entirely understandable why a bested opponent might bear a grudge (which I'm sure isn't malicious, just a case of sour grapes). I think someone just made an inappropriate allegation without considering how poorly-justified it was, and I'm sad that the mafia elements of suspicion and accusation-crafting have leaked out into the meta-community.

[Yoko Kurama]

Don't start making assumpitions because I assume the more you diss the accusser the more you piss them off. Basically to everyone making personal attacks best to keep your mouth shut. Dasquin you act as if you are keeping an open mind and yet you are saying the accuser just has sour grapes.

Quote="jeep"A person I respect greatly mentioned a concern that I might have gathered information illicitly. [/quote]

Here that... Its not someone with sour grapes or someone with a grudge.

Shady those were my thoughts exactly, and I mean exactly even with how this in itself like a game of mafia. I need facts not just well he said he wasn't. People are capable of many things and unless you have a realistic personal relationship with someone you can never tell there true colors.

[Dasquian]

Yes, but you're making it out to be a big unknown which could go either way, and almost seem to be enjoying the intrigue. Actually, you're making an accusation against someone who works damn hard for this site which is so far detached from common sense and reality, it's offensive. If I was JEEP, I'd be hugely insulted.

I don't know JEEP, but I do know that the prospect of him cheating is so hugely unlikely it should be dismissed out of hand unless the accuser can back it up with more than "he did really well in these two games".

[MeMe]

I just want to point out that if you read the quoted portions in the first post of the this thread, you'll see that it doesn't look like an accusation

at all

. It looks like a conversation between two players -- and the quoted person advises jeep to more fully explain his suspicions when he has them, because when he doesn't 1) there seems not to be any reason and 2) it makes the game less fun.

Quit crucifying the messenger. I think this thread has been good for a lot of us in that anyone who has considered jeep capable of impropriety probably thinks it much less likely now. I'll also thank everyone to remember that lots of us have never played with jeep over on the GL and have no experience of his amazing play in a forum in which he holds no administrative power.

Can we just put this to bed now?

[mathcam]

but I do know that the prospect of him cheating is so hugely unlikely

I'm trying very hard to stay out of this discussion and will continue to do so, because I (like all of you, I might point out), have no idea what the actual truth is.

But just from a mathematical viewpoint, it's hard for me to stay quiet when people use terms like "hugely unlikely" to describe their opinion and only their opinion. If you want to convince me that something is hugely unlikely, you demonstrate to me how you calculated the probability that said event occurs and why you feel that that probability is so small that it deems the title "hugely unlikely."

Cam

[Dasquian]

I think it's unlikely because anyone who plays Mafia for any extended period of time comes to know and respect the integrity required, and the futility of cheating. Factor into this that JEEP is a site admin who has thus taken on extra responsibility showing a further dedication to the game, I can say that, without knowing him personally at all, the odds are very much against someone in his position wanting to cheat. You can then add onto that the fact that JEEP is known and respected as a good player, and has nothing to prove anyway, and that he also has a method to back up his uncanny ability to work things out which he's been proposing to publish for a while anyway.

Hence my evaluation of hugely unlikely

Anyway, I agree with MeMe that this has gone on a bit long; I apologise if she feels that I'm crucifying the messenger, it certainly wasn't my intent to defame her (I do feel that Yoko is pushing the line a bit too far, however).

[Yoko Kurama]

Let me say one more thing. If people thought I were cheating dasquin I would not be insulted at all. If I was so good that people could only see me cheating as a possiblity then I would be proud NOT insulted.
Your personal attacks on a guy merely going off logic which you yourself are not is what has been pissing me off. I will put this to bed on my part. Except my assumptions should be resolved by jheep in a couple weeks. I do feel that he is not and will show me.

[jeep]

[JEEP] arguably has opportunity [to cheat]

Oh, it is not arguable. If people use the PM or notes systems without encrypting their messages, the plain text will get stored in the database. I can access the database. It's not trivial, but it's no where near beyond my ability. I certainly have the opportunity.

I would also like to add my voice to:
DO NOT disparage my "accuser". It only serves to annoy me.

It was not like I got a message that said "You are a cheater." It did piss me off, but I

quickly

got beyond it and accepted it. Had it come from someone whose opinion I didn't already respect, I might have ignored it, but I could not ignore it coming from this person.

I am one of two people with "extraordinary" ability to cheat (I don't think Q has the current password to access the database, it changed after the first crash. And anyone else who can access the hosting control panel would have to change that password, which would lock mith and me out and anyone actually at the host probably doesn't play mafia). Mods can edit posts, but edits get logged. People can use social engineering to get another person's password, but there is nothing we can do about that. The cheating I am suspected of is not traceable, so it's natural that some might consider that I use it. I have NOT been explaining my accusations due to metagame considerations. If your mind works that way, it's not a long leap to assuming I cheat.

I think people are over-reacting to the concern about me publishing my paper. I could do it in game as most people do, but it's too much. Just look at the reaction in Newbie 12. Anyway, I'll do something to avoid it from extremely tainting running games. The game MUST advance. It's not like I'm going to break the game, I'll just point out blunders people make.

-JEEP

[jeep]

If people thought I were cheating dasquin I would not be insulted at all. If I was so good that people could only see me cheating as a possiblity then I would be proud NOT insulted.

I suspect it would be different if you had the unique opportunity that mith and I have. The cheating methods you have are mostly traceable.

-JEEP

[YK]

Well I was insinuating if I was a administrator. I did not even know there was a way for the rest of us to cheat. But come one jeep you have to get some self satisfaction from this right?? I mean come one to be so good you look like you're cheating would be a pretty big ego booster in my opinion.

[jeep]

But come one jeep you have to get some self satisfaction from this right?

No. I know I'm good. As far as I know, six months ago, others knew I was good. All that without me being thought a cheater. Game integrity means so much to me that it disturbs me to know others think I cheat.

I don't play on the Romanian board any more because the level of play was orders of magnitude below mafiascum and I wasn't even as good then as I am now. (Antrax asked me why I bothered playing there and it made me realize that I got nothing out of it.) And don't take this as knocking the board... most players were in their first dozen games when I played there.

-JEEP