How to respond to presure when you're scum read

[Infinity 324]

In general scum tend to be slightly less active than town, just cause they are slightly less motivated in general

Only true in Newbies game.

[Infinity 324]

^ not really, I find it true in general in any game.

[Realeo]

In Mislead 2, we're the most active poster and we're both scum.

[Infinity 324]

That's an exception. Also if I was town there I'd be posting a lot more even than I was.

[kuribo]

Not PR or gambit related? Actually faking reads?

I've... not FAKED the read per se, but I've definitely been soft toward my scum reads calling them null so they won't NK me while I lynch their buddies.

I've absolutely called DGB null when I was scumreading her for that very reason, because when I scum-read her I wind up dead.

[RadiantCowbells]

Not PR or gambit related? Actually faking reads?

I've... not FAKED the read per se, but I've definitely been soft toward my scum reads calling them null so they won't NK me while I lynch their buddies.

I've absolutely called DGB null when I was scumreading her for that very reason, because when I scum-read her I wind up dead.

The trick is to only give a read on one scum at a time.

After all, you can only lynch one scum per day, and it's not like anyone reads dead peoples' reads.

[callforjudgement]

Of course, doing that is only a good idea if you'd actually prefer not to be NKed. If you're vanilla or something like that, baiting an NK onto yourself can be a good move, due to protecting the town power roles.

[kuribo]

^ not really, I find it true in general in any game.

It's really, really, really not true.

Yes, there is the Lurkmass Rule (the bottom 1/3 of posters almost always have at least one scum)

But the more experienced you are as scum, the more comfortable you get with that mask, and the more likely you are to post.

I'm always in the Top Three of posting activity, regardless of my alignment. Other players like Fate, DGB, AngryPidgeon, pirate mollie, etc would easily be able to say the same thing.


If activity = town to you, then you'll never break through to the top tier in terms of scumhunting.

[kuribo]

Not PR or gambit related? Actually faking reads?

I've... not FAKED the read per se, but I've definitely been soft toward my scum reads calling them null so they won't NK me while I lynch their buddies.

I've absolutely called DGB null when I was scumreading her for that very reason, because when I scum-read her I wind up dead.

The trick is to only give a read on one scum at a time.

After all, you can only lynch one scum per day, and it's not like anyone reads dead peoples' reads.

yeah but that requires subtlety and we all know that ain't me lol

I prefer to only go hard after one player anyway because associative tells are one of my strong skills and they're completely worthless until you flip a scum anyway. I hate, hate HATE people who draw associative tells between living players because it wastes time discussing cases that are meaningless if one of the players flips town.

[Infinity 324]

If activity = town to you, then you'll never break through to the top tier in terms of scumhunting.

Of course not, and of course lurking is a shitty scumtell. But it's just false that town and scum have exactly the same activity levels on average.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, there is the Lurkmass Rule (the bottom 1/3 of posters almost always have at least one scum)

Actually I've found that in the top 5 posters recently there usually is a scum myself.

Since post volume is play-style driven and not alignment driven IMO I think any attempt to peg scum solely based on post numbers is going to be generally a failed avenue.

[Infinity 324]

Since post volume is play-style driven and not alignment driven IMO I think any attempt to peg scum solely based on post numbers is going to be generally a failed avenue.

I agree with the second part, but I think alignment does have some impact on activity.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm always in top 5 posters ... shrugs

[kuribo]

Actually I've found that in the top 5 posters recently there usually is a scum myself.

Shhhhh you'll force me to reveal the fact that the Lurkmass Rule is a broad generalization based on statistics because of course at least one scum is less active than the others



And yeah most scum teams also usually have a more vocal leader

[MagnaofIllusion]

I agree with the second part, but I think alignment does have some impact on activity.

You can continue to think whatever you want.

Unless you want to show a broad statistical analysis of posts per game Day played by players showing a statistically signficant higher occurance rate of players posting more as Town than as scum. Then your thoughts might move into something that is actually meaningful.

[kuribo]

Here's an example from the last game I moderated:

[LlamaFluff]

I agree with the second part, but I think alignment does have some impact on activity.

You can continue to think whatever you want.

Unless you want to show a broad statistical analysis of posts per game Day played by players showing a statistically signficant higher occurance rate of players posting more as Town than as scum. Then your thoughts might move into something that is actually meaningful.

This. Players will tend to post about what they normally do regardless of alignment with a few specific players as exceptions, I remember Nikanor from a long time ago would lurk post D1 as scum enough for it to be a tell, but for the most part if a player posts 3-5 times a day as town, they will post 3-5 times a day as scum. Unless you can prove there is correlation for the average (not newbie) player, I don't buy activity as being a tell at all.

Now in some

very specific

situations scum may be more prone to holding off posting because it suits them more to have another player say something first, but I don't for a second believe that "lurking" is a tell unless you can prove its done intentionally for an advantage.

[Realeo]

I sense mathemathical challenge

[eagerSnake]

If you don't like what is being said, change the conversation.

[Vifam]

Just be cool I guess

I mean just cuz someone thinks you're scum doesn't mean you're gonna get lynched right

[Cerberus v666]

This advice may sound like it's geared towards town, but really, this works regardless of alignment.

While the idea of refusing to defend yourself is all tempting and whatnot, realistically, when people see you refusing to address their attacks, at best they'll feel frustrated at you ignoring them. At worst, they'll assume that because you're not answering them, you can't, that you're deliberately avoiding the subject hoping it'll go away because it's incriminating.

Of course...if you put any effort into defending yourself, you can kiss your ass goodbye because you're getting lynched, guaranteed.

If you can't defend yourself, yet refusing to defend yourself gets you lynched, what can you do?

Simple:

you address the concerns people have, but you redirect their attention elsewhere.

You push their focus onto other players. You turn their reason for suspecting you around and try to focus it elsewhere. You don't want to ignore their suspicion. You don't want to defend from it. You want to make their suspicion no longer be something they want to direct your way. Get their attention where YOU want it. With you in the spotlight, it's the perfect time to highlight your scumreads, why you have them, and why the players scumreading you should listen to you and lynch your scumreads rather than you. (Yes, as scum, you should have scumreads.)

A task which is far easier, for instance, if you can point out that most/all of their reasons for suspecting you ALSO apply to your scumread. It won't work all the time; you'll still get lynched. The best way to avoid a scumread is to never be scumread. But this is the best general advice to take. Specific situations may differ (where some defense may be warranted), but in general, neither defending yourself nor refusing to defend yourself is the best approach to take. Work with the players accusing you, to try and reach a gamestate where they will push who you want pushed.

...Which you should have, by the way. If you don't have anyone who you want to see pushed, you pretty much deserve the lynch on you.

I didn't read the rest of the thread past this. The bolded is really the best advice you could get, and it summarizes the trend I was noticing with what people were saying. The act of "redirecting" their attention elsewhere comes from actively finding what else exists in the game to be suspicious about...in short, scumhunting, EVEN IF YOU'RE SCUM. All players, regardless of alignment, do suspicious, questionable things, and it's up to you to point all that out. Yes, the people who are tunneled on you won't care, BUT THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT. It takes a number of votes to get lynched, and by diluting the attention of the town, you reduce the immediate risk of a lynch on you, which buys you the time you need to let people focus on the next shiny thing that comes along.

Getting out ahead of the suspicions is also key. Be aware of how the game, as a whole, feels about as many slots as possible. Make sure that when things start trending against you, but you aren't yet the main focus, that you're making those moves to redirect and control the conversation. If you time it right, you won't have to deal with the suspicion that comes from seeming to survivalistically offer up other lynches for consideration...instead, you'll just be scum hunting, because people in large numbers won't be focusing on pushing you.

[pieguyn]

I hate all this talk about "redirect the conversation elsewhere" "push a different target". to defend yourself, just be honest and try to reach an understanding with the other person as to why you did what you did as town. don't let it affect your scum hunting at all, and people will either realize that their concerns on you don't hold water, or they will hopefully see your play and the fact that you're not being disingenuous and give you the benefit of the doubt.

I have never had any issue with this, to the point where I was lynched for it; obviously there will always be idiots who just won't give a shit and will push you just because they want to push you, but I usually get widely town read in all of my games, so, /shrug.

[Bins]

to answer the original post,

cry

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

to answer the original post,

cry

by how much?

[Firebringer]

I hate all this talk about "redirect the conversation elsewhere" "push a different target". to defend yourself,

While I don't believe your way of doing it is wrong, being open can be very good strategy in many circumstances, but I disagree people shouldn't try to redirect or push someone else.

These are all common things seen in real world application to debate and conversations. It's very common. It's up to other players how they go forward if a person continues redirecting or changing subject, etc.