How to respond to presure when you're scum read

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:00 am

Post by callforjudgement »

As town with heavy scumreads on you, you should be more open about what you're doing, even if it interferes with your scumhunting (if you're widely townread, you can safely hide details, ask questions with no obivous motivation, etc., but these aren't advised when there's a wagon on you). You should also try to figure out who's actually scum; if nobody else is being pushed you'll be lynched by default, so your defence basically consists of a) "playing in the open" and ensuring everyone understands why you're doing what you're doing, b) aiming to find someone else who's scummier, as their lynch will be better than yours (and has a much better chance of hitting scum).

For example, after replacing in at L-1, I once used the game thread like a personal PT for recording my thoughts about the game. That's not something that'd be wise in most other circumstances, as it gives way too much away, but in terms of preventing my own lynch it worked like a charm (to the extent that I could catch scum on the basis that they were still voting me, and all the townies had unvoted).

As scum, the best solution if you want to survive is to try to fake what you'd do as town. This is hard; the whole reason it works as town is that it's behaviour that's as difficult as possible to fake. Nonetheless, you have to try. Alternatively, you can plan for your own death. In this case, what you're normally trying to do is to drop tells that'll cause the town to be confused about your buddies. For example, in one game where I was scum and suspected I'd die, I picked a mildly scummy-looking townie and basically acted like I didn't care about their alignment, scumhunting only the other players. In the end, they got lynched rather than me, at least partly because people thought I was their buddy. In another game, I picked a scumbuddy whose wagon had collapsed after a claim and mildly tunnelled them. After I was vigged and flipped scum, pretty much nobody doubted they were town for the rest of the game. Note that in this sort of situation, planning for your own death doesn't mean you actually hope to die; if you somehow survive, you're probably even better off. It just means that if you do die, you've given your buddies the best possible chance of carrying the game to endgame.

Just for completeness, a third possibility: if you're caught
mechanically
(Cop guilty or the like), and you also have no reasonable hope to claim out of it, the best strategy is normally to troll and spam up the thread (and if the game's mechanically complex and the town might benefit from coordinating night actions, throw in a selfhammer while you're at it). You're going to get lynched, so you may as well make scumhunting as hard as possible, and that's normally accomplished by making the thread as obnoxious as possible to read.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:52 pm

Post by Infinity 324 »

In post 19, RadiantCowbells wrote:But actually you either need to change people's minds or change people's hearts.
Either influence people emotionally to the extent that they no longer wish to vote you or change their read so they no longer think that you're a good vote.
Second is easier but the first makes the game more pleasant for all parties involved.
Not the other way around?
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:49 pm

Post by mastina »

Making people not want to lynch you in their heart is ridiculously easy.
Be witty. Tell jokes. Make people laugh, in a good way. Be friendly. Be an all-around genuinely nice person, but without being a doormat. Be strong in your personality, and hold firm to your stances, optionally apologizing for wrongdoings though sometimes specifically noting the wrongdoing and why you won't apologize also working just as well. Strategically know how much to post and when to post: avoid overly long walls, and spamposting for pages. These are things that don't take much time to implant in others. Just by not being annoying, you're already in the top 25% of the playerlist as far as heart goes. (Because 75% of players are annoying.)

Mind, however, is much, much, much harder to do. Changing people's minds requires to present logic for why you're not the option they should go for. And every player clicks differently. Some will never listen to logic no matter how sound. Some will have entirely alien reasons for lynching you that you don't understand, yet alone, how you can counter them. Some people explain their reasons really shoddily, and as a result, when you defend against them, they won't feel like you addressed the "real" problem because of a communication error on their end as to what their real problem actually is with you. The list of problems goes on and on and on.

But suffice to say, yes. Heart is easy. It just takes willpower and the proper attitude.
Mind is nearly impossible.

Over half of my scum wins were because of heart, not mind.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:18 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

Also change your avatar to something cute.
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:06 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 27, mastina wrote:Strategically know how much to post and when to post: avoid overly long walls, and spamposting for pages. These are things that don't take much time to implant in others. Just by not being annoying, you're already in the top 25% of the playerlist as far as heart goes. (Because 75% of players are annoying.)
This is very true. I think the three big things that will make you immediately a better and much harder to lynch player are: Be likable, be logical, be active. If someone makes sense, is fun to be around, and is able to stay reasonably active they are a pain to get mislynched (or correctly lynched as scum).

For getting out of a jam, knowing who you are playing against is a big one. Some players respond well to showing emotion (faking being genuine is easier than most people think - note screaming at people isn't the right emotion to show), while other people will respond to you setting up a counter wagon and showing why you aren't the best lynch as opposed to why you are town. Know your audience and play to them.
Ranmaru wrote:Also change your avatar to something cute.
Always have to wonder about that. I know the only ones I negatively react to are ones that show movement, those I tend to downgrade a bit out the gate.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:48 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

Don't panic, and don't vote the next highest wagon. Those two things tend to be death sentences.
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:15 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

In post 29, LlamaFluff wrote:Always have to wonder about that. I know the only ones I negatively react to are ones that show movement, those I tend to downgrade a bit out the gate.
Annoying avatars I find to be negative too. I don't find an annoying avatar to help with influence. I know a good example is Papa Zito's current avatar (an one he is using again) seems scummy to me. This is because it looks like a monster and doesn't look too cool, more like a monster. His other one actually seemed cool and fit well with his jokes. I may consider avatars too heavily though. I haven't really seen moving avatars much, so don't really have an opinion there. I will say most of my older avatars weren't that good. I do like to use silly avatars sometimes when I'm messing around.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:07 pm

Post by VysePresident »

In post 13, Frozen Angel wrote:
In post 1, mykonian wrote:Defense, something that people talk about, does not exist.
This is wrong though. You should always be transparent and truthful about stuff and answer the cases on you. "The more you answer the scummier you look" is stupid.

answer with confidence , honesty and decency. If you remove every concern as soon as they rise - you won't ever get in trouble. Being active and present to answer will save you from getting lynched - regardless of your alignment

but putting that aside You shouldn't worry to much about being scum read (and thats not agsint my above suggestion you can do both). Just stay calm. whatever you do there will be some others who will interpret that as something scummy (sooner or later). You just need to be consistent and conscious about the game atmosphere and to not let it get out of your control.

and Thats me - who only got lynched twice in past year (about 50 games?) on MS (once as scum day 1 - when RC used a tricky tell) and once as town in lylo when I was exhusted from my teaching class and instead of defending myself I started criticizing the town!
Quoting this because FA said most of what I wanted to say better than I ever could, especially in the brain dead stupor that is 4 AM. Still going to chip in my 02, in the spirit of being up anyway. :P

In my experience, people respond to perceived transparency and polite confidence so much better than any amount of BS you can throw out, whether you are Town or Scum. (Bar a very few people. You know who you are. :P ) You don't need to address every single accusation, and it's not usually possible anyway. Pay attention to the atmosphere of the game, don't let any objections get out of hand, but don't get trapped in them either. Any time you post, you're putting a little bit of yourself into what you write, and people have a sense for that. That is a better defense or stronger condemnation than anything you actually say.

I think this is why scumhunting is such an effective tool. It allows you to show your thoughts in a constructive way, while pushing the game forward in a direction other than yourself. It's not enough to just post them and run either, they have to grow, and it's easier for people to Townread you if they can see them growing organically. Even if I don't have any suspects, I just write up what thoughts I do have, and explain why I'm at where I'm at, because it at least gives people a sense of my TownSelf. It's better to have a foot in the door than nothing at all.

Oh, and as a friendly tip, don't be rude or belligerent. A very few players can get away with this style, but the vast majority are just obnoxious. People stop listening to obnoxious players quickly.

Polite, engaged, and constructive players tend to get further - don't burn your bridges unnecessarily, use manners, and have a reasonably positive mindset whenever you post. It won't save you every time, but so far, I've made it for the few dozen games I've played without being lynched once as Town. To top it off, people tend to like you better anyway, which makes for better games, and better backstabbing. ;)

Learn when to speak, and how to speak, and it will save you so many times.

This definitely doesn't begin to cover everything, and knowing the crowd you're appealing to helps no end. Still, this is what I've found generally works for me, for both alignments.

Here's wishing you luck, mate! :)
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:56 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 13, Frozen Angel wrote:This is wrong though. You should always be transparent and truthful about stuff and answer the cases on you. "The more you answer the scummier you look" is stupid.
yes, doesn't make it less true.

and Thats me - who only got lynched twice in past year (about 50 games?) on MS (once as scum day 1 - when RC used a tricky tell) and once as town in lylo when I was exhusted from my teaching class and instead of defending myself I started criticizing the town!
8 years and a 50% rate of getting mislynched, of which the large majority in the first 2 days.

Otoh, as scum in that same period, the 2 times I was lynched day 2 were out of a claim situation, other lynches always more towards the end of the game.

I know pretty well what the difference is, it's in my day one play, and without delving into self meta too much it comes down to transperancy. Truth kills me personally, but obviously that goes differently for other people. Either way, after that the game really takes it's own course. You are not the determining factor in if you get lynched or not. There's too much ambiguity in how stuff gets read that what looks like perfect transparent town play can easily be explained away and dismissed as having ulterior motives. The goal is to not have too many people read into your posts that way as scum (because you always find something). As town, why would you try to tailor how people read you? :]
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:50 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

You need to manipulate other townies when you are town and those who say otherwise are idealists who don't understand how the game works.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:52 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Or at least, that's been my experience as someone who has sufficient notoriety around my scum play that literally everything I do gets called into question.
If I was honest about my reads I'd get lynched every game for every perceived inconsistency, every potential ulterior motive, every single possible way I could be scum.
So I'm not. I lie about my reads and falsely make them a lot more fluid and certain than they actually are in order to make myself look townier.
I recommend that if you want to not get lynched, you do the same. Think about how your posts will be received and don't post stuff that will get you lynched.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:00 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Remember, the vast majority of players have no fucking clue what towniness looks like but do know what a consistent set of reads evolving 'fluidly' looks like. Fudge the former to do the latter as either alignment.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:12 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

The funny thing is, the sort of read-fudging you're talking about does indeed make you look townish, but I'm more likely to have enough information to pull it off as scum. This means that I often look townier when scum than I do when town.

It's also definitely worth thinking about how your posts will be received, regardless of alignment. There are some word choice tricks you can use to make people feel better about you, and nowadays it's a concious decision I make to use those sorts of words as either alignment; there's very little reason not to, as looking townish helps your victory chances regardless of whether you actually are or not.

That said, something I always do as town is to be honest about my strengths of reads (if I need to keep a read secret for some reason, I simply won't discuss it). That's because it's rare for me to catch an entire scumteam by myself (I mean, I've done it, but I can hardly expect to do it every game!); talking through my reads honestly with the rest of the town makes it easier to come to a conclusion. (Of course, that can be manipulated, but it also gives you a chance to catch the people who are doing the manipulation.)

Incidentally, if someone is pushing a lynch harder than their actual read on the slot, that's normally good evidence that they're scum (although it depends somewhat on the player; some people naturally push lynches hard no matter how sure they are, and the best thing you can do with these players is to ignore and/or policy lynch them).
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:20 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Yup, and that's why scum has a better winrate than town. Based on the metrics most people use to judge towniness, it's easier for scum to look town than actual town.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:47 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

Never underestimate the ability of town to be absolutely terrible
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:26 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 34, RadiantCowbells wrote:You need to manipulate other townies when you are town and those who say otherwise are idealists who don't understand how the game works.
exactly!

Mafia is a game of politics. If your good at it you live and you get the lynches you want

if your ok in it you might die but they will follow your reads your reads or vise versa

if you suck at that then your day 1 mislynch and you have literally no impact or whatsoever in the game beside populating it
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:28 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

But being political doesn't mean to not be transparent

without transparency the town is doomes (they are the uninformed minority) no way to win if their playing against themselves
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:34 pm

Post by Ankamius »

As someone who is nearly impossible to lynch as town by play, I'd have to say a big reason for it is that even if I'm completely disinterested in the game and haven't done much of anything, I respond to pressure by stepping up and challenging anyone who reacts to my wagon in a way I don't think is town and then brute forcing them to address it. Oftentimes I don't even acknowledge the fact that I'm being wagoned outside of this.

The amount of times I've gotten close to being lynched and then had a bunch of people suddenly get really unsure whether I'm actually scum and unvote is unreal.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:11 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

In post 42, Ankamius wrote:As someone who is nearly impossible to lynch as town by play, I'd have to say a big reason for it is that even if I'm completely disinterested in the game and haven't done much of anything, I respond to pressure by stepping up and challenging anyone who reacts to my wagon in a way I don't think is town and then brute forcing them to address it. Oftentimes I don't even acknowledge the fact that I'm being wagoned outside of this.

The amount of times I've gotten close to being lynched and then had a bunch of people suddenly get really unsure whether I'm actually scum and unvote is unreal.
Nearly impossible ;)
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:23 pm

Post by Ankamius »

I only remember three instances of it ever happening, and two of them were within the last couple days. You and Nacho were the only people that ever pulled that off, and apathy had a huge factor in pulling that off in the end. The third was literally a game with two town factions, me calculating that a member of my own faction had to be lynched in order to have any chance of winning, and the other members of my faction tunneling me, resulting in a self-hammer.

:/
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:41 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 29, LlamaFluff wrote:I think the three big things that will make you immediately a better and much harder to lynch player are: Be likable, be logical, be active.
Caveat: be
strategically
active. Posting too much will prevent you from giving the presentation you want. In short, it interferes with both the likable and logical aspects if taken too far. A general guideline would be posting once or twice a day on average, with a few posts each time. Less than that can be acceptable, but brings you dangerously close to lurker territory (not to mention prod range); more than that, and...your message just gets lost.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:43 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

ah to live long :
eaither lurk the way no one can read you or be active and all over the place...
(just cause I saw people in first group survive not I appreciate that type of playing)
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:48 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 42, Ankamius wrote:As someone who is nearly impossible to lynch as town by play, I'd have to say a big reason for it is that even if I'm completely disinterested in the game and haven't done much of anything, I respond to pressure by stepping up and challenging anyone who reacts to my wagon in a way I don't think is town and then brute forcing them to address it. Oftentimes I don't even acknowledge the fact that I'm being wagoned outside of this.
Know your audience again. This will get the more methodical/logic bot players to gravitate to your lynch, but it might deflect the hyperactive/impulsive player.
mastina wrote:
In post 29, LlamaFluff wrote:I think the three big things that will make you immediately a better and much harder to lynch player are: Be likable, be logical, be active.
Caveat: be
strategically
active. Posting too much will prevent you from giving the presentation you want. In short, it interferes with both the likable and logical aspects if taken too far. A general guideline would be posting once or twice a day on average, with a few posts each time. Less than that can be acceptable, but brings you dangerously close to lurker territory (not to mention prod range); more than that, and...your message just gets lost.
Posting 20 times a day isn't being active really beyond the technical definition. If you are posting more than ten times a day you probably are having most of the game ignore what you are saying because its all noise. Two or three content filled posts a game is plenty. More than that and you are shooting yourself in the foot unless the entire game is able to keep that pace up.
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:38 pm

Post by Accountant »

Posting 20 times a day is a good way to get townread as scum a lot of the time
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:42 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 48, Accountant wrote:Posting 20 times a day is a good way to get townread as scum a lot of the time
their simply irrelevant variables

activity by itself is NAI
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