Why do YOU hate hydras, as either a player or a mod?

[Cerberus v666]

Quite curious.

Do you think it gives them an unfair advantage? Do you just not like the occasional instances of dissonance? Do hydra slips piss you off, or the fact that people just don't sign which head is talking?

[McMenno]

I hate hydras because reasonably rational (tm) rekt us in steven universe 2

[Cerberus v666]

I hate hydras because reasonably rational (tm) rekt us in steven universe 2

But we didn't. We lost like nubs.

[wgeurts]

Alright, I've played in a fair few hydras now. This is my opinion.

Hydras can be a lot of fun, mostly for those involved in the hydra itself. It gives players a chance to possibly interact more with a user they enjoy playing with, and discussion about a game makes said game seem somewhat more involving when you have someone you know to be on the same side. As a result of hydras it is also possible for players to pick up new techniques, I can say that I've learned quite a bit from my partners. You are suddenly confronted with different ways of viewing things, manners of thinking, and varying strategies. Learning from these can aid a player, especially a newer one as it could aid them in seeing patterns. These are the benefits briefly outlined.

However then there's the fact they can actually affect games in an otherwise unnatural manner. One of the strengths of a masonry is that you can discuss varying thoughts and ideas, every hydra is somewhat like a mason-lover disregarding votes. Every player added to the game is another head the opposing team will have to compete against. This is a game of intellect and cunning, the second you're bouncing ideas back and forth you're no longer fully dependant on yourself: two people tend to work a lot more effectively than one if they both put in the needed effort.

You can also abuse hydras. As an example me and cerebus in Saga mafia planned who would speak at times, noting how certain posters were more likely to believe stances coming from one of the two heads. Cerebus was very good at getting plans going through sheer logic, I approached those where that failed. Different people work differently when dealing with others, and the second this can be manipulated by a slot you have an unfair advantage.

Cognitive dissonance also can be abused, and is abused, by hydras. Faking conversations or disputes adds an outside influence into the game that single slots simply cannot replicate. Regardless of the result, it's simply not equal.

Then we get the practical issues: many just use hydras as an excuse to not have to give a game full attention. Oft this leads to one player carrying the hydra or you end up with an apathetic slot. This isn't good. Hydras if allowed, should not be used for this reason.

Now, I love hydras, I've enjoyed them and learned a tonne from them. However considering the game, and the possible advantages gained whilst using them, I consider now that they shouldn't be allowed. Yeah they're a blast, but competitively speaking they're not equal. Which leads to the question: what do we prioritize more? Fun or play-quality?

The normal queue is a place where hydras are not allowed, however many who simply don't want to play with hydras wish to play a theme game for instance. Saying that we already have a queue without them isn't fair, as said queue is heavily restricted when it comes to choice of game.

[Creature]

idk, I'm not fan of hydras that don't sign at all or use flavor that doesn't hint a head at all (such Akame and Kurome signing as "Akame" or "Kurome" to sign their posts). Otherwise they're fine.

I don't mind hydraing, though I usually post less as hydra because it's harder to log out, log in the hydra, post then log out and back to your account than just go and post.

Sometimes I would prefer that hydra players could use their original account (like two players in one slot) rather than make an alternative account.

Though, banning hydras from MS will take out a very fun tool.

[Kublai Khan]

Hydras simply shouldn't be a part of mafia.

Mafia is about having instinct and wrestling with second guessing those instincts or not. Having a second (or third!) person to sound off your doubts to is not something that other players have. It's an unfair advantage.

Plus trying to read a slot means that you're getting a gauge of their personality and determine if a particular action is in character or maybe they did it because of a scummy win condition. If it's two people, then variables are off the fucking wall.

At best, it's not what mafia was intended to be. At worst, it's cheating.

[wgeurts]

One good question to ask is why allow hydras but not the discussion of games with those not participating disregarding replacement possibility?

[zoraster]

I have a better question: why not use an avatar so people can quickly and easily follow the conversation with you in it?

[Albert B. Rampage]

1) Unfair advantage because you can cover all hours of day, always have eyes on thread, easy to endgame vote someone out at MYLO
2) Annoying, because multiple viewpoints, clash of personalities within a hydra, inconsistent and unpredictable positions
3) Hard to keep track who is saying what
4) They increase the number of personalities to deal with
5) You can't pressure them as easily

[Creature]

1) Unfair advantage because you can cover all hours of day, always have eyes on thread, easy to endgame vote someone out at MYLO

Why would you vote like this in MyLo?

2) Annoying, because multiple viewpoints, clash of personalities within a hydra, inconsistent and unpredictable positions

I see solo players acting like hydras then.

3) Hard to keep track who is saying what

Yeah, it should be their duty to sign their posts (names, not "Akame" or "Kurome") or atleast hint who's speaking.

4) They increase the number of personalities to deal with

Somewhat like the difference between micro and large theme games.

5) You can't pressure them as easily

Same can be said about a lot of players.

[Kublai Khan]

Creature, none of your rebuttals are good.

[Cerberus v666]

3-5 are good rebuttala. 2 is a complaint I agree with, but one which is based on people not knowing how to be a good hydra(mainly, resolving differences in opinion outside of the game thread, and presenting a unified front).

ABRs first complaint is a mixed bag. A lot of those advantages are very dependent on hydra membership. For example, I'm almost always around, and up to date with a thread, so adding a hydra partner to my normal play doesn't provide any of those advantages. For others though, it certainly does.

[Kublai Khan]

LYLO situation and I'm scum. Me and town are cross-voting and I need other town to put down the winning vote. I have a different approach for how I would manipulate Person X and Person Y in a hydra, but not both. How is this fair?

[Spiffeh]

1) Unfair advantage because you can cover all hours of day, always have eyes on thread, easy to endgame vote someone out at MYLO
2) Annoying, because multiple viewpoints, clash of personalities within a hydra, inconsistent and unpredictable positions

These are my biggest reasons.

Hydra dissonance is fucking obnoxious and exhausting to deal with.

I feel like a big point of playing mafia, at least on the town side, is to identify other town players and work together with them. A town-aligned hydra already comes with a second opinion they can trust in unconditionally, which is a huge advantage when town is supposed to be the UNINFORMED minority.

Many hydras I have played with have only hydra'd because neither player has time to commit fully to the game. A hydra does not remedy this. If you don't have time to play, don't play.

Other hydras I have seen are so someone can "learn" from the other's playstyle. You can do that by reading games/asking them for advice through PM for something.

As someone who used to be fine with hydras, I feel the cons heavily outweigh the pros and they should just not be a thing.

But everyone and their mother has a hydra now so I don't see them going anywhere any time soon.

[pieguyn]

Many hydras I have played with have only hydra'd because neither player has time to commit fully to the game. A hydra does not remedy this. If you don't have time to play, don't play.

this is the biggest reason I don't really hydra all that much anymore, since I used to be someone who did this a lot. I feel I was able to remedy it well enough, fortunately.

from a player POV, I kinda just feel like playing in all-solo player lists allows me to just focus more on straight scum hunting and reading people without having to think about anything beyond that; having hydras in just makes a few things more complicated in a way that I can deal with without too much issue (as long as there are only a few hydras in the game, anything more than that and it just implodes) but do not find as fun as the alternative.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Hydras simply shouldn't be a part of mafia.

Mafia is about having instinct and wrestling with second guessing those instincts or not. Having a second (or third!) person to sound off your doubts to is not something that other players have. It's an unfair advantage.

This.

[Nahdia]

hydras are one of those things where like
on one hand, i recognize it absolutely infers an advantage
on the other hand, they make the game a lot more enjoyable in many cases.

at the end of the day, mafia is a game that's meant to be fun. yes, they do somewhat go against the spirit of the game, but they dont damage the core essence of the game so im willing to make that sacrifice. that's why i allow them in my games anyway.

[Cheetory6]

Hydras are alright when there are secretly ten people in the hydra.

[Accountant]

I signed up to a game with 9 players because I wanted to keep track of 8 players, not 10 or 11

[Alisae]

Bruh you're not keeping track of yourself?
WTF MAN!

[Accountant]

Bruh you're not keeping track of yourself?
WTF MAN!

I have a strong townread on that player and I assume that they're on my side.

[Frozen Angel]

idk, I'm not fan of hydras that don't sign at all or use flavor that doesn't hint a head at all (such Akame and Kurome signing as "Akame" or "Kurome" to sign their posts). Otherwise they're fine.

I don't mind hydraing, though I usually post less as hydra because it's harder to log out, log in the hydra, post then log out and back to your account than just go and post.

Sometimes I would prefer that hydra players could use their original account (like two players in one slot) rather than make an alternative account.

Though, banning hydras from MS will take out a very fun tool.

we wrote who is akame and who is kurome in sig

and I never played in that hydra we just used it to mod

?!!!

[Creature]

Just using it as an example.

[Andrius]

Hydras can be a lot of fun, mostly for those involved in the hydra itself. It gives players a chance to possibly interact more with a user they enjoy playing with

I think we should have more games that encourage this type of mechanic without actually having hydras.

FakeGod's Waltz series is a good example where people can partner with another player they like for the course of the game and have many advantages of the hydra without having a hydra (which are banned in his games IIRC) and without having pairs of masons.

Kill the hydras.
Make creative games that encourage partnership mechanics, thus reducing the need for hydras.

Hydra dissonance is fucking obnoxious and exhausting to deal with.

Also this.

[Persivul]

Hydras are annoying, but I don't see that they're advantageous. In my experience I don't recall hydra reads being any better or worse than average.