Why do YOU hate hydras, as either a player or a mod?

[Ranmaru]

Only advantage is you know your head's alignment, and being able to discuss with them. Disadvantage is you have one vote instead of two. So you must coordinate. There does come the time where you both disagree on something, and you let your other head take charge, and realize you were right. Sometimes it can be the other way around. Sometimes you can both have a solid read on different peeps.

[mykonian]

if you're curling your nose at the fact that another player has some kind of advantage and you want 100% pure balance and a competitive setting for your mafia, that's exactly what the normal queue, where hydrae are banned, offers. i fail to see the issue.

I agree.

Easy to say for you.

Visa versa:

"if you don't care about balance or general site rules, and you just want to have some fun, it's exactly what bastard games offer. I fail to see the issue."

The key here is that you don't care about normal games anyway, so might as well corral those annoying complaining people there, that way they don't bother you. And I wouldn't care much for bastard games, so you could have those. In the middle are those juicy themes, obviously, which are balanced, with some good mods, etc, which you feel entitled to, while I just want to play one once in a while.

[Psyche]

What Nahdia said. My partners and I nearly never express dissonance, and if we do it's couched in terms of "this is something we're currently working through snd haven't made up our mind on."

not good enough tbh

[Psyche]

if you're curling your nose at the fact that another player has some kind of advantage and you want 100% pure balance and a competitive setting for your mafia, that's exactly what the normal queue, where hydrae are banned, offers. i fail to see the issue.

the thread's about why people hate hydras
that there's a place where one can play without hydras doesn't really bear on the issue at hand

[Psyche]

I don't think hydra heads should fake synchrony; that just makes them even harder to read. I mean, as town, the one thing I'm actively

looking

for evidence that the slot is being disingenuous.

[wgeurts]

All those that saying two heads doesn't give you an advantage in quality of play, consider this.

Who tends to get more done: somebody working on their own, or someone working with a partner they get along worth?
Hydras have the power to be around more, form stronger reads easier as brainstorming situations and possibilities is significantly easier whilst having someone else to bounce around thoughts with, whilst also simply being able to behave differently as to reach varying users.

Of course a single player can play as well as or better than a hydra, however that doesn't change the matter that they potentially have a quite significant advantage other others. The fact some hydras disagree or form bad reads isn't a disadvantage of hydras, it's a result of the players in it not being capable of working together well or simply both not being that experienced. Place two high-quality players that put effort into a game and I'm willing to bet a single slot would not be able to play as well with equal effort.

When you play chess you don't get to consult others all the time, it's an individual intellectual challenge. Mafia is all about this, what's the difference?

[wgeurts]

If fun is the main factor for having them why don't we allow specific users to private message other players whilst we are at it?
Changes how others have to approach the game whilst giving the user an advantage, just like hydras. Although this scenario is a lot more severe it boils down to the same issue.

[Cerberus v666]

What Nahdia said. My partners and I nearly never express dissonance, and if we do it's couched in terms of "this is something we're currently working through snd haven't made up our mind on."

not good enough tbh

It's DEFINITELY good enough for addressing the dissonance concerns. No functional difference between two hydra heads informing the thread they need to discuss something, than asking a single slot for their opinion on something and having them tell you they aren't sure yet.

The OTHER concerns it doesn't relate to though.

[Creature]

The difference is that private messaging may affect someone's read on the slot, while hydraing both heads know they're town but they still must convince others they're town like any other slot.

[wgeurts]

The difference is that private messaging may affect someone's read on the slot, while hydraing both heads know they're town but they still must convince others they're town like any other slot.

How about the rule that states that we're not allowed to talk with others outside of a game even though they will never replace in?
That rule is there for the same reason, as doing so strips the game of one its core aspects and provides all those that do utilise the opportunity with an advantage others wouldn't have otherwise.

Once again, you don't have players of chess get the chance to consult on others in a match. You don't have triathlon competitors sign multiple people under one slot, each specialising in one of the challenges. Why then allow this in mafia as a competitive game meant to be about a group of individuals skill?

[Creature]

How about the rule that states that we're not allowed to talk with others outside of a game even though they will never replace in?

It's the same as hydraing with someone who doesn't really want to hydra.

[wgeurts]

How about the rule that states that we're not allowed to talk with others outside of a game even though they will never replace in?

It's the same as hydraing with someone who doesn't really want to hydra.

It isn't, it's the same as hydraing with someone who doesn't want to post but will still provide sound analysis and discuss the game with their partners.

[callforjudgement]

If fun is the main factor for having them why don't we allow specific users to private message other players whilst we are at it?
Changes how others have to approach the game whilst giving the user an advantage, just like hydras. Although this scenario is a lot more severe it boils down to the same issue.

My main (only?) issue with this is that allowing PMing often gives a nightplay advantage, often to the extent of completely destroying a setup. I've seen Mafia played on sites which allow unlimited PMing, and it isn't pretty (for example, as soon as someone becomes confirmed town, every townie fullclaims to that player via PM and allows that player to direct their power role actions, which rather distorts typical setup balance; scum have to at least pretend to follow suit for obvious reasons).

If not for that issue, I'd be fairly inclined to try a couple of experimental games with PMing allowed to see what happened.

[Creature]

idk, that could apply to hydras where one head posts other just advices.

[wgeurts]

idk, that could apply to hydras where one head posts other just advices.

I know it can, which is why it is odd for us to allow one but not the latter.

[PranaDevil]

if you're curling your nose at the fact that another player has some kind of advantage and you want 100% pure balance and a competitive setting for your mafia, that's exactly what the normal queue, where hydrae are banned, offers. i fail to see the issue.

I agree.

Easy to say for you.

Visa versa:

"if you don't care about balance or general site rules, and you just want to have some fun, it's exactly what bastard games offer. I fail to see the issue."

The key here is that you don't care about normal games anyway, so might as well corral those annoying complaining people there, that way they don't bother you. And I wouldn't care much for bastard games, so you could have those. In the middle are those juicy themes, obviously, which are balanced, with some good mods, etc, which you feel entitled to, while I just want to play one once in a while.

All of this.

I love a good themed game, ,but I should be barred from the theme queue because I don't like players having an unfair advantage? No, complete bull.

And yes, a hydra is an unfair advantage, that's actually one of the reasons people hydra, in fact I'd say it's the only reason to hydra.

You don't have the time to fully commit? Then that there hydra pairing gives you an unfair advantage as your slot is now keeping up better than you would alone (though ideally don't join to start with)

You want the additional help with playing? Couldn't be more obvious that you are gaining an unfair advantage in that there slot.

Two players actively discussing things and bouncing ideas off each other? Erm... how the hell would that NOT be an unfair advantage?

Yes, the rest of the players may be uncertain as to the slot's alignment, but if the hydra is town, it's two players the scum need to consider because that single slot has two people searching for them, and is essentially an overpowered slot without having a PR (fuck, give them a cop role and that's one broken game right there... mason lover cop...). If they're scum, they can discuss with each other (even without day talk) and plan before posting anything. That in itself is OP.

Here's an idea... how about instead of people going "you have normal games, go there if you don't like hydras". We instead say that hydras should have their own queue instead, surely that's literally just as good? Actually better because if you don't like hydras, you don't get forced ut of games, or eve worse, if you join a game that currently has no hydra, and a hydra joins as the last player, you end up in a game with them, and need to either deal with it, or replace out, thus screwing up the game out of the gate.

Fuck hydras.

[Creature]

Games with only hydras usually look bad.

Also, it's not just normal queue where you can play hydra-free games.

[Accountant]

replacing out right before the game starts is the opposite of screwing up the game - it's probably the one moment where replacing out doesn't affect the game at all.

[PranaDevil]

replacing out right before the game starts is the opposite of screwing up the game - it's probably the one moment where replacing out doesn't affect the game at all.

And if there's nobody to replace in, and thus it takes longer to start the game, or you have a slot empty indefinitely?

Also, why not have both players in the hydra actually play the game properly instead of someone else having to leave so they can play with the unfair advantage?

It's literally like playing poker where you are actively able to talk about your hand with someone else who isn't at the table. Or as alluded to earlier, playing chess but being able to get additional help.

And hydra only games end up bad because hydras are bad.

And yes, I know you "can" play hydra-free games elsewhere, but that's only if the mod bans them for their game.

It's also impossible to balance for hydras as not only do you not know which alignment the hydra would land on, but said hydra already has the advantage of being able to discuss their posts before they actually post. You should also in a 3 scum/8 town game, as scum, only have 8 town to consider. With hydras you then get 9, 10, 11 etc. town to deal with, with each hydra having two totally separate styles of play and if they each have two different scum hunting styles, you wind up doubly screwed.

On the flip side, a scum hydra can simply use whichever head is currently best at that moment. Need the head that has to steer scum away and is good at that? Off they go. Need the head that can make stuff seem scummy to direct town in a set way, well that's handy.

It's a very blatant unfair balance to whichever side they wind up on, the very fact that the only real reason for them is to allow more players in a game specifically limited to a lower amount, means they shouldn't be allowed. It's literally no different than me picking someone else on the site and asking them to guide me in a game they aren't in. That would be viewed as cheating and blatantly against the site rules (rightly so), yet hydras can do exactly this.

[Accountant]

And if there's nobody to replace in, and thus it takes longer to start the game, or you have a slot empty indefinitely?

but uhhhh these are also issues if you replace out mid-game??

and uhhh i'd rather wait for my game a bit longer rather than have an empty slot midgame ruining everything

[wgeurts]

And if there's nobody to replace in, and thus it takes longer to start the game, or you have a slot empty indefinitely?

but uhhhh these are also issues if you replace out mid-game??

and uhhh i'd rather wait for my game a bit longer rather than have an empty slot midgame ruining everything

Why face the issue at all in the first place?

There has yet to be a really strong argument in favour of hydras, besides fun.

[PranaDevil]

And if there's nobody to replace in, and thus it takes longer to start the game, or you have a slot empty indefinitely?

but uhhhh these are also issues if you replace out mid-game??

and uhhh i'd rather wait for my game a bit longer rather than have an empty slot midgame ruining everything

A - That's if the replace out happens prior to the game start, it's entirely possible it would happen after its begun.

B - Doesn't answer the issue of why someone who doesn't want to play with a hydra because they imbalance the game should be forced out of a game they want to play in to begin with.

There's not a single legitimate reason for a hydra... you both want to play? Both sign up for the game then. Not good enough at the game? Ask for advice, read games of good players. You don't have time to fully focus on the game? Don't sign up at all.

I find it's more fun being a doc/cop that can do both roles each night, yes it's OP, but I find it fun so I should be able to be that role if I choose. - Pretty much the same argument as "I find it fun being in a hydra", considering they're OP.

[Ankamius]

The most fun I've ever had in mafia has been in hydras, but I've only had one instance where I felt we had an actual significant advantage from being in a Hydra.

To be fair though, that was also the game where both of us caught the entire scumteam on day one separately, so

[BlackStar]

I don't like how they can sweep inconsistencies under the rug just by saying that their other head made a post and not them. I know that a lot of hydras sign their posts, but some don't

[Cerberus v666]

I wonder how much different this thread would be if I had asked for people to share why they love hydras.

I deliberately made it negative to make sure the bias in posting was in that direction, since I was curious about that, but yeah. Hmm.