What do you consider 'Normal'?

[eagerSnake]

The normal queue is great as is.

Normal roles and mechanics yet plenty of options to choose from. Ergo setups are not easily predictable yet you still know pretty much what you're getting into.

Normal to me just means using normal roles and mechanics, and balancing as best as possible. Swinginess isn't an issue as long as it's still balanced.

The queue just needs to move a little quicker which would require more players.

[mhsmith0]

Normal should be a fairly standard setup (like Newbie games) imo. We need balanced roles, and a setup (or set of setups) that everyone knows going into to it. This then pits "player skill vs player skill" instead of a role you didn't expect giving one side or the other an advantage. We have other game types for that kind of thing, so let's get normal back to a "default" or "standard" game that provides little in the way of surprises.

Let these games simply be people trying to read each other and using strategy, not crazy abilities and setups which can break the game.

FWIW, the open queue may be most suited to what you're looking for, where all games are fully open or semi-open (matrix6 being an example of a semi-open setup that has an random but known process for distributing what kind of roles may be in a game). Normal games are set up to be closed (so roles aren't known) but at the same time have a somewhat restricted set of types of roles (i.e. "normal" roles), and be subject to review for normalcy and balance by people who are qualified to review games and generally don't allow terribly unbalanced or easily broken games to pass through their review.

[ChrisOrmie]

FWIW, the open queue may be most suited to what you're looking for, where all games are fully open or semi-open (matrix6 being an example of a semi-open setup that has an random but known process for distributing what kind of roles may be in a game). Normal games are set up to be closed (so roles aren't known) but at the same time have a somewhat restricted set of types of roles (i.e. "normal" roles), and be subject to review for normalcy and balance by people who are qualified to review games and generally don't allow terribly unbalanced or easily broken games to pass through their review.

Ah thanks, good to know! I wasn't aware of the open games. I've only played a newbie here, and read a lot of themed games. Didn't understand the lexicon here as much as I thought - teach me to speak without researching first!

[ThinkBig]

The only thing I'd suggest changing is adding more reviewers. It takes way too long for a game to get into review stage to sign ups. Adding more reviewers I think would lessen the burden of the team and move things along.

I'd also suggest allowing mods to choose whether or not to allow hydras in their games.

[Nexus]

If you want to join the NRG, apply.

No. Hydras are not normal, will never be normal, and this won't change.

[RadiantCowbells]

What's the process of applying?

[ThinkBig]

How do I apply to join the NRG?

[Nexus]

Oh I thought this guide was public, I will make a thread shortly, but in short, PM me with answers to these questions:

What experience do you have with Normal games? Provide links
What experience do you have with reviewing games? Provide links
What is your understanding of why the Normal queue exists?
What sorts of changes would you make to Normal guidelines, if you could?

[chamber]

I'd also suggest allowing mods to choose whether or not to allow hydras in their games.

When you do this, they are almost exclusively allowed in. Mods think its more accommodating. It's easier to see the hydra asking than the players that would rather not deal with hydras. As such its important to provide a place that guarantees a hydra free experience.

[Desully]

Why aren't hydras banned from open games? Lol

[drealmerz7]

I'd be happy if normal simply meant:

1. non-bastard
2. Daystart, Mafia gets Night-Chat only
3. no flavor in PMs

currently I'd say the thing that exists in Normals that seems EXTREMELY NOT NORMAL to me, is the requisite N0 mafia chat. It kind of blows my mind that it can be considered "normal" to have a Night where only scum can do anything but the only thing they can do is chat, not use abilities (how is that normal? and ZERO, and, just, ugh!) I'd like to understand why it exists and why it is considered "normal" if anyone can tell me.

If you're going to have a N0, make it a true Night, allowing all players to perform abilities and scum to perform a kill. This is obviously lame for the poor N0 victim who signed up for a game they aren't able to participate in, and makes the balance completely different #-wise.

N0 is really stupid (for a number of reasons) except for on rare occassions where it is crucial for balance/the setup, imo.

[chamber]

I'd be happy if normal simply meant:

1. non-bastard
2. Daystart, Mafia gets Night-Chat only
3. no flavor in PMs

currently I'd say the thing that exists in Normals that seems EXTREMELY NOT NORMAL to me, is the requisite N0 mafia chat. It kind of blows my mind that it can be considered "normal" to have a Night where only scum can do anything but the only thing they can do is chat, not use abilities (how is that normal? and ZERO, and, just, ugh!) I'd like to understand why it exists and why it is considered "normal" if anyone can tell me.

If you're going to have a N0, make it a true Night, allowing all players to perform abilities and scum to perform a kill. This is obviously lame for the poor N0 victim who signed up for a game they aren't able to participate in, and makes the balance completely different #-wise.

N0 is really stupid (for a number of reasons) except for on rare occassions where it is crucial for balance/the setup, imo.

You likely only find this weird because you come from a different background. Back in the day long long ago all games were N0 starts basically. So mafia being able to communicate before the game was the norm as part of that. When people realized the issues that N0's had, they removed problematic parts(someone not really getting to play, roles leading day1), but kept in the communication because it was normal to be able to communicate before the game.

[callforjudgement]

N0 communication is basically just a way for the scum to get to know each other, and find out each others' roles (the scum are meant to have full information about their own faction).

You could arguably get rid of it via giving every member of the scum a full list of information of what the other members of the scum have role-wise, what their playstyle is like, and various similar information, but why not just let them tell each other in person? It's a lot easier.

[ThinkBig]

I actually think day chat should be the norm, not the exception. If the newbie queue had day chat, I think you'd see a lot less flaking among mean scum.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i think we did an experiment and ran daychat in newbie games and found it significantly(?) lowered town winrates

someone who actually knows should correct me though

[mhsmith0]

It sort of did. First half of experiment town win rates plummeted, second half was normalish (iirc). Which is kinda weird.

[ThinkBig]

Perhaps they should add an encrypt or to matrix 6?

[Dunnstral]

It sort of did. First half of experiment town win rates plummeted, second half was normalish (iirc). Which is kinda weird.

Well what was the sample size?

[Dunnstral]

Perhaps they should add an encrypt or to matrix 6?

Not a good idea - adds room for a lot of speculation "if there's daytalk then" etc. + balance wise it can range from useful to useless depending on the team (complete newbie teams likely gaining the least benefit from encryptor)

[RadiantCowbells]

Daytalk newbies were so much fun =]

[Umlaut]

I liked newbie daytalk too.

To me the important parts of Normal are

• standardized game rules,
  
• a finite and predictable list of roles and modifiers,
  
• de-emphasis of power roles vs. scumhunting, and
  
• a reasonable (not necessarily equal, but
  reasonable
  ) chance of victory for both/all factions.

I explicitly don't care about whether or not the game is "themed" in the sense of having unusual flavor, as long as it meets these criteria. I actually find it mildly annoying that the current queue setup lumps together "nonstandard flavor" and "unusual mechanics" into one place, so that if I want to play Alien Mafia or something I have to worry that the game is going to be some ridiculous role-madness monstrosity full of lynchers and flying pumpkins that shoot laser beams out of their asses, and I would probably play more themed games if there were a "mechanically normal" queue available.

I appreciate the idea that a normal role should have a normal name, but I think just allowing flips along the lines of "Umlaut,

Alien Spawn

(Mafia Goon)

, has been lynched" would suffice for that purpose.

[horrordude0215]

I appreciate the idea that a normal role should have a normal name, but I think just allowing flips along the lines of "Umlaut,

Alien Spawn

(Mafia Goon)

, has been lynched" would suffice for that purpose.

I would +1 this. I think normal mechanics with themed/unusual flavor should still be considered a Normal Game.

[eagerSnake]

I consider Godfathers normal but I'll never win that fight

[mhsmith0]

Correct, that fight is unwinnable. Mafia doctors and traitors are effectively godfathers to gunsmiths, so if you want a "cop that can possibly be fooled" role you use a gunsmith, not a cop.

[kuribo]

i would argue that most theme games could pass normalcy reviews with the exception of the flavor


most of them don't have weird lynch mechanics or anything like that, and probably the majority use near-standard roles