Charisma and Mafia

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Charisma and Mafia

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:15 am

Post by Firebringer »

So I just wanted to talk about how charisma affects games and how anyone can attempt to be more charismatic in the way they approach the game. The links below offer more specific topics, while this OP I wish to brush on very broad topics that you can do in general ways to improve your charisma.

General Topics


1)
Knowing what people want:

This is a quality any good leader needs to understand, if you examine any person who has moved you to act in a certain way they had to understand what you specifically want and tailor their message to your demographic in order to effectively sway you to their side.

In mafia, its not different.
Everyone has a win condition, and its easy to say "Both our goals are to eliminate scum, join me on this wagon because it will lead to you furthering your win condition" in practice, that is rarely enough to actually push people to act with you.

2)
Understand what people value:

This means you need to understand not just what a person wants in terms of who they want to lynch, but WHY they want that. What does the person your trying to convince think is the determining factors whether a person isn't aligned with you? Tailor your message to hit those points. Maybe someone reads players by VCA, somehow try to frame your reasoning using that to express why they should be joining you to lynch who you believe is not aligned with you.

3)
Mimicry:

People tend to agree with people who behave as they would. This could mean posting style, word choice or just voting pattern. The key here is you can use those to try to target a person and talk as they would talk, and behave as they would, they will be far more receptive to your attempts at persuasion.

4)
Confidence:

This is an obvious one, but people will gravitate to players who exude confidence, the key here I believe is that you should never FAKE confidence. That will cause you more problems because people will pick up on you faking it when you start showing cracks in your facade. You should be honest about what you are confident on and what you aren't, and yes that sometimes means people will not be swayed by your arguments, but people will believe you more when you say you are confident on something if you have a history of being upfront with people on what you are and aren't sure of. Lying about your confidence will only hurt you in the long term, it will lead to blind arrogance and people thinking you are full of it (which honestly you will be if you have been faking it).

5)
Affirm Others:

Do not outright dismiss anyones argument even if you 100% disagree with them on every level. Talk to them, say why you think they are right but also affirm them of something that you do agree with. Perhaps you like the way they came to conclusion but you don't agree at all with that conclusion. Or you think they are right but they missed some steps logically, a charismatic individual will give credit to a person when they do something right and point out in a nice way where they may have messed up.

6)
Don't try to win them all:

You will not win everyone to your side. Don't attempt it. If one player hates VCA and you push an argument using VCA you may alienate another player while you tried to persuade another. You should try to keep your message in a way that convinces the most people you think you will need without trying to convince everyone. This can be hard, but some people will just disagree with you no matter what. Even if you frame it in the way that is convincing to them if you made another argument they don't value they may see both arguments as invalid.

7)
Repeat Yourself:

You think you made an excellent case why X is scum? Great! But it will get lost in the noise. You have to repeat the message constantly, so it sticks in peoples minds. I would recommend never Copy and Pasting the same post because people will think you are just spamming and being a nuisance, always try to find a way to rephrase your message but keeping the heart of it intact. Maybe the way you said your case the first time just didn't have the right wording and the second time will broaden your reach to players who didn't agree with the way you said it the first time.
Last edited by Firebringer on Sat May 27, 2017 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
Randomnamechange
Randomnamechange
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Randomnamechange
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6075
Joined: February 8, 2014

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:18 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

this is only really applicable to players you aren't familiar with. a lot of players who don't know me dislike my style, but some people who I've played with know that it works for me.
vonflare (21:40)
you suck randomidget
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12785
Joined: May 14, 2015
Location: Where the moon and the sea meet.

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:24 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

Good post Fire. Its definitely a weakness I have.
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
User avatar
mastina
mastina
She/Her
False Prophet
User avatar
User avatar
mastina
She/Her
False Prophet
False Prophet
Posts: 16670
Joined: October 7, 2016
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Contact:

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:32 pm

Post by mastina »

Obviously, I tend to agree with Firebringer here, and echo his sentiments with a nod of approval in saying: "Yes. This is pretty accurate and true". Because. Well...it is!
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12785
Joined: May 14, 2015
Location: Where the moon and the sea meet.

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:59 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

My question is: Do you actually NEED charisma to be a good Mafia player?
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
User avatar
Infinity 324
Infinity 324
they (pl.)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Infinity 324
they (pl.)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 18337
Joined: April 7, 2013
Pronoun: they (pl.)
Contact:

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:25 am

Post by Infinity 324 »

I don't think you need charisma to be a good player, I think you need it to be a great player though.

As town you can have good reads but you can only do so much if you can't get anyone to listen to you.

As scum you can town it up all you want but you may just end up getting lynched anyway if you can't push through enough mislynches.
Show
new GTKAS

<3 you are valid

plural system, we may or may not sign
User avatar
wgeurts
wgeurts
They/Them
Pokédex
User avatar
User avatar
wgeurts
They/Them
Pokédex
Pokédex
Posts: 4771
Joined: September 15, 2014
Pronoun: They/Them
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:30 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 5, Infinity 324 wrote:I don't think you need charisma to be a good player, I think you need it to be a great player though.

As town you can have good reads but you can only do so much if you can't get anyone to listen to you.

As scum you can town it up all you want but you may just end up getting lynched anyway if you can't push through enough mislynches.
Ideally you wouldn't need charisma as town would be approaching everything rationally.
"
i agree we should have a rule against wgeurts
" -
Davsto

"
let's have 2 rules against wgeurts
" -
DeathRowKitty

User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:45 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 3, mastina wrote:Obviously, I tend to agree with Firebringer here, and echo his sentiments with a nod of approval in saying: "Yes. This is pretty accurate and true". Because. Well...it is!
I think you would be more charismatic if you condensed your message to the essentials and cut out the fluff.
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:46 am

Post by Firebringer »

Also tailoring your message.
Mimicry and even confidence needs work.
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12785
Joined: May 14, 2015
Location: Where the moon and the sea meet.

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:39 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 7, Firebringer wrote:
In post 3, mastina wrote:Obviously, I tend to agree with Firebringer here, and echo his sentiments with a nod of approval in saying: "Yes. This is pretty accurate and true". Because. Well...it is!
I think you would be more charismatic if you condensed your message to the essentials and cut out the fluff.
In post 8, Firebringer wrote:Also tailoring your message.
Mimicry and even confidence needs work.
Rude.
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:42 am

Post by Firebringer »

aren't we all
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12785
Joined: May 14, 2015
Location: Where the moon and the sea meet.

Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:45 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 10, Firebringer wrote:aren't we all
Not if you're trying to be charismatic.
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:46 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 11, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 10, Firebringer wrote:aren't we all
Not if you're trying to be charismatic.
Charisma is about telling someone that they are a moron and they need your help in the nicest way possible that they thank you for it.

=)
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
LicketyQuickety
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12785
Joined: May 14, 2015
Location: Where the moon and the sea meet.

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:47 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 12, Firebringer wrote:
In post 11, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 10, Firebringer wrote:aren't we all
Not if you're trying to be charismatic.
Charisma is about telling someone that they are a moron and they need your help in the nicest way possible that they thank you for it.

=)
Sure, if you're actually an asshole.
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
User avatar
mastina
mastina
She/Her
False Prophet
User avatar
User avatar
mastina
She/Her
False Prophet
False Prophet
Posts: 16670
Joined: October 7, 2016
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Contact:

Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:17 am

Post by mastina »

In post 7, Firebringer wrote:I think you would be more charismatic if you condensed your message to the essentials and cut out the fluff.
I played around with succinctness and found that my posting is actually more effective when I try not to be, surprisingly. The fluff is part of the charm. There's also the fact that I am a writer by nature, and as a storyteller, I like to create good flow: I use rhymes all the time, and I also stack alliteration in my sentences. This has the tendency to cause people to smoothly transition from one sentence to another with greater ease.

Essentially, I aim to entertain, and sometimes going off on tangents does exactly that--tells an interesting side-story that people tend to listen to.
In post 8, Firebringer wrote:Also tailoring your message.
I am actually quite skilled at this when I choose to be. There are certain audiences I can't tailor a message to. (Mostly more logical players, since I don't do logic very well. But also to some extent newbies who haven't settled into a style, because they are hard to pin down.) Otherwise, I tend to know what a player wants and am able to give it to them. It's just that this is often a lot of work, so I tend to not bother. (It exhausts me fairly quickly.)
Mimicry and even confidence needs work.
I actually do mimicry quite well, but I have a different name for it: projection. I project onto others, and expect them to in turn project back onto me. (I can also mimic the style of a hydra partner quite well when we're inside a hydra. Sometimes even I have trouble distinguishing between my posts and my partner's posts.) I hold people to standards I set, and in turn expect them to hold me to similar standards they set.

Confidence is a whole different subject. I'm actually thinking of making an MD thread which explains how I view the game, which will help more accurately define what I mean here, but basically, because I simultaneously see everyone as both town and scum, I have to weigh possibilities versus probabilities. In casual play when I give reads, I tend not to explain this, so I will make generic statements--instead of "X is 55% likely to be town, Y is 75% likely to be scum", I'll go "X is slightly town, Y is scum". It's only when I am REALLY trying to convince people, it's only when I really want to sway people, that I will explain to them what I mean in more detail:

"I recognize that X is not all town; these things are what I hold issue with. However, this is why I don't think those are too much of a problem. I also see these things, which make me think town. Not strongly, but weakly--about 55/45. I recognize that Y
could
be town, for reasons such as A, B, and C...however, I take issue with that for this reason, and I also am seeing D, E, and F which all strongly make me think scum."

That's a lot of effort though. It's so much effort that often I just don't have the stamina for it. (And stamina is something that every player needs to have an awareness of. If you fail to track how much stamina you can have, then you risk suffering burnout, HARD.) If I were doing that detail every time, I wouldn't be able to play so much as a single micro all the way through, yet alone a large theme.

Also, another reason to hold back from doing this: reactions. Not explaining yourself is a valid tactic to gather further information, as how players treat your statements lacking the context behind your statements is a perfectly viable method of getting stronger reads. Basically, people seem to think that there are two things to do: convince others as a leader, or follow others as a sheep. Not so. Sometimes, you want to be in a gamestate where the goal is simply to get a better grip, as to
lead
to one of those two. In other words, just as important as knowing when to be charismatic is knowing when NOT to be charismatic.
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:02 pm

Post by Firebringer »

See like that,
I read about three paragraphs and stopped.

People have small attention spans you need to quickly and effectively grab attention then deliver your message and make sure the message sticks.

Otherwise the message is lost and people don't know what your overal point was.

You may think you are effective at delivering long messages, but it's only to a VERY small crowd and even those people are going to miss many parts of what you say and focus on only a few parts they think are crucial.
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #16 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:04 pm

Post by Firebringer »

In post 14, mastina wrote:There's also the fact that I am a writer by nature, and as a storyteller,
People are not reading your posts to hear a story, they are reading it to play a game.
You have wrong avenue if you want to be telling stories to people.
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
mastina
mastina
She/Her
False Prophet
User avatar
User avatar
mastina
She/Her
False Prophet
False Prophet
Posts: 16670
Joined: October 7, 2016
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Contact:

Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:29 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 16, Firebringer wrote:People are not reading your posts to hear a story, they are reading it to play a game. You have wrong avenue if you want to be telling stories to people.
And that's where you're wrong.

Convincing people is just selling them a
narrative
. (Narrative quite literally being a synonym of story!) It is telling a story of "This player is town", or "this player is scum".
Storytelling is at the heart of mafia games, because people
want
to be told a story. They want to hear how something works. They want to listen to why something makes sense. They also want to be entertained.

When I say storytelling, I am not referring to a story in the literal sense, so much as I am the idea of saying words with the intention of delivering a message in a beautiful method. That's what a story boils down to. An account of events, as seen by someone. Everyone listens to stories because they take feedback from others; everyone tells stories because they give feedback to others. And every story has an intended purpose.
User avatar
Killthestory
Killthestory
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Killthestory
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5003
Joined: September 8, 2015

Post Post #18 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:05 pm

Post by Killthestory »

you don't need charisma if you catch all the scum

If you are scum you just catch yourself
User avatar
Firebringer
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
User avatar
User avatar
Firebringer
Trail Blazer
Trail Blazer
Posts: 52495
Joined: June 28, 2015
Location: woofbringer
Contact:

Post Post #19 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Post by Firebringer »

In post 17, mastina wrote:
In post 16, Firebringer wrote:People are not reading your posts to hear a story, they are reading it to play a game. You have wrong avenue if you want to be telling stories to people.
And that's where you're wrong.

Convincing people is just selling them a
narrative
. (Narrative quite literally being a synonym of story!) It is telling a story of "This player is town", or "this player is scum".
Storytelling is at the heart of mafia games, because people
want
to be told a story. They want to hear how something works. They want to listen to why something makes sense. They also want to be entertained.

When I say storytelling, I am not referring to a story in the literal sense, so much as I am the idea of saying words with the intention of delivering a message in a beautiful method. That's what a story boils down to. An account of events, as seen by someone. Everyone listens to stories because they take feedback from others; everyone tells stories because they give feedback to others. And every story has an intended purpose.
This was actually a really good job in condensing the message.
Still a bit of fluff you could take out though.

3-5 sentences per paragraph would be perfect.
Tops 3 paragraphs.
Last edited by Firebringer on Sat May 27, 2017 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
User avatar
Killthestory
Killthestory
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Killthestory
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5003
Joined: September 8, 2015

Post Post #20 (ISO) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:04 am

Post by Killthestory »

i only read good stories so if your "story" is paragraphs of boring stupid mafia stuff I won't read it
User avatar
Lil Uzi Vert
Lil Uzi Vert
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Lil Uzi Vert
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 16278
Joined: August 9, 2016

Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:42 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

Bumping to say that I'm confindent only 2, 4, and 6 work.
Ankamius
Ankamius
Survivor
Ankamius
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 21802
Joined: May 9, 2011
Location: Target Locked. Initiating Combat.

Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:00 pm

Post by Ankamius »

I really should look into what I do differently when I get a lot of influence and when I don't, because making that consistent would dramatically increase my skill level as both alignments.
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:31 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

5 is incredibly important
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
Lil Uzi Vert
Lil Uzi Vert
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Lil Uzi Vert
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 16278
Joined: August 9, 2016

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:33 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

In post 21, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Bumping to say that I'm confindent only 2, 4, and 6 work.
Add 7 to this by the way.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”