The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

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The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:23 am

Post by wgeurts »

I've noticed a worrying trend in the current site's meta during the last year or so. In this post I'll outline exactly what's wrong and what we should be aiming for instead, providing means of doing so.

The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

Imagine you're in a game, you're trying to figure out who's aligned with what faction and you come across the following player: somebody who has a sporadic voting pattern (or the opposite: a really stiff pattern), all reads are explained with buzzwords along the lines of "gut", "x-vibes", "LAMIST", "WIFOM" or "this post is scummy/townie". You ask them to explain themselves, and they quote a few posts if lucky and simply state that these posts are "awful"/"good". Not entirely happy with this explanation you probe further, but they refuse to work along with you, stating they "don't read walls" or use "ISO's". For that matter, they largely don't provide input on majority of posts. Alas, this kind of play is common to varying degrees right now, and worse more: it's being tolerated. This isn't right: the best play as town is to work as a collective whole and provide as much input as you can. People should not be allowed to get away with unexplained reads, never should a post containing theory go by without comment, and in almost every scenario people should be sharing their thoughts! Yet this is not happening!

Transparency

Players should be a lot more transparent with their thoughts than they are now, and transparency should become something expected from everyone. Mafia is a game built upon information, and ways of handling that information. The second you withhold information, you're taking away a piece of the full-picture and are thus negatively impacting the town. Before I go any further, I wish to state that transparency is not the same as full-disclosure: common sense is required (so don't claim abilities if there's no benefit in doing so etc.). Every read a player states in the game, should have an explanation paired to it. This seems obvious, but it's not happening. If you think somebody is aligned with the town or with some other faction you have to go ahead and provide examples of evidence, and then go ahead and explain why that evidence shows they're likelier to be of a certain alignment.

Each read should be structured like this to some extent:
Read:

-Evidence A (Post x): "If they are scum doing this would be odd as ..., however as town it makes sense because ..."
-Evidence B (Post x): "There seems to be a hint of x emotion in this post, as town considering the earlier events it makes sense because .... As scum this would probably be faked as ..., and thus this post seems indicative of ..."

And so on.

I mean, you don't have to format them exactly like this. The general gist is that every point should have evidence, and an explanation. Simply stating a post is scummy or townie is not enough! Anyone can make these statements, including scum. If this kind of play is tolerated the town is effectively handicapping themselves. It's when points have to be justified that you make scum's life significantly harder: they no longer can get away with coasting and have to actively forge reasons. The chances scum will slip-up (by contradicting themselves, etc.) is significantly higher like this. As town, you have no excuse not to be explaining yourself. Only in select situations is keeping your thoughts to yourself viable: such as with gambits which would be blown if information is handed out prior to execution. Even so, the second it's no longer an issue to explain the gambit you should do so, whilst also providing your findings.

There's no excuse to not do so.

Cooperation

Players are playing too much as individuals right now, and this is harming the quality of town play (and scum play as they don't need to play as well to win). Keeping in mind every player in a game should be explaining every point they raise, cooperation becomes key. The ideal town would be one where each point raised is discussed, and people change their views depending on conclusions drawn. This process repeats itself, and you end up with reads that are justifiable over the board if all the players are open-minded. Player's reads may not always align however, as behaviour can be interpreted in different ways and we are not dealing with objective evidence. Now, discussing everything raised is simply not possible due to the sheer amount of work and time it requires. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to achieve this ideal. If you are town you should actively be investing effort into commenting on as many points raised by others as possible, stating why you agree or disagree and raising your own evidence to support your opinion. If you are town, but are rarely actually discussing other people's reads and their strengths you are playing this game wrongly. The more discussion and reflection is going on the likelier quality reads will be formed. It also places a huge burden on scum, who will now have to actively lie and forge constantly.

The fact we removed "Best town team" as a scummy shows something is wrong. The town is a team, we should start being team-players. Which brings me to my final issue...

Effort

Many people simply don't do the above as they can't be assed to do so. This is horrific! The amount of times I've seen someone state they don't read walls, won't go through ISO's, or won't look at someone else's posts is insane. And nobody says something about it! When you sign up for a game you have signed up knowing you should be investing time and effort, not doing so is technically playing against your win-condition and should as such not be tolerated at all. You should always be reading every posts, not just reading actually, but analysing! Multiple times preferably! If you are too lazy to do this replace out, you're a hindrance to the game.

There is also no justification for "gut" reads. A gut read is simply a read for which you have no explanation yet, and until you provide one it is worth literally nothing. It is way to easy to fake gut reads as scum, and as town you should be trying to find out why you think someone is aligned with whatever.

It's also not acceptable for you to tell someone to go and look at someone's posts for themselves. It's not them making a case for something, it's you, and as such you hold the burden of evidence.

How do we combat this?

There are a number of ways we can shift the meta to improve play globally. As players we can start being less tolerant of those not pulling their weight, actively pressuring them and lynching them if need be. Either they'll get the message eventually or they'll get so fed up they'll quit playing mafia. Good. We don't want people in games who don't actually play.

As moderators of games we need be stricter in upholding the rule of "don't play against your win-condition", penalising players somehow when they don't actually play the game properly. This needs to be carefully upheld however, lurking is a viable strategy in certain situations and is not the same as investing no effort.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:32 am

Post by Nahdia »

sorry i dont read walls so idk what that said can some summarize it for me.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:34 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 1, Nahdia wrote:sorry i dont read walls so idk what that said can some summarize it for me.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:39 am

Post by Nahdia »

ok well in all seriousness im definitely somewhat guilty of the low-effort and gut reading in particular. im gonna defend gut reads though. yes, they're easy to fake as scum, which is why you should always be skeptic of someone who is only delivering gut reads and never explains. but a gut read is basically a way of saying "something about this player pinged me on way or another, i just can't put my finger on what". if you genuinely have that thought, it's useful to give it even if you can't fully explain IMO.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:40 am

Post by wgeurts »

I know a fair amount agree with you there, though that doesn't mean you should be only using gut-reads. It also shouldn't be an excuse to not participate.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:01 am

Post by Desully »

Whether this behavior can be surpressed or not depends on the number of responsible players in a particular game.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:37 am

Post by Lycanfire »

I have gutreads that are difficult to put into words. I can case two people, and one will be objectively scummier, but I can simply have intense hatred for another scumread. In
In Memory
I cased two slots, quoting every single post I had problems with from each. Many of the issues I had with them were from the same events. The one I had the most problems with on paper-the slot that could have given me an infinite supply of reasons to scumread them for that day if given the opportunity-was town, and the one I was hard gut reading as scum ended up making a giant blunder, ended up shackling themself to a claim for the rest of the game, which ultimately took all the momentum away from the scumteam when they had to explain themselves the next game day.

I think gut trumps all, so long as it is complimenting an already established read. Trusting my reads is something I have to remind myself to follow through on. I've lost several solvable lylos.

In that previous game I was told twice to make wallposts to towntell myself. I subverted that in
Darkest Dungeon
by making the largest shitposts imaginable and, if those posts were actually read the town would have been able to identify that I was putting the hydra slot in an indefensible position. The hydra was seemingly too busy trying to become coherent and being called out on the lack of continuity in their posts meant they weren't at a point where they could consider fully what I was arguing. It was the mod's opinion that I probably would have made it to a day5 lylo if the vig didn't switch from my partner onto myself, really all because it took that long for someone to read my posts.

I can safely say my enjoyment in a game goes up if people engage with me. I'm typically scumread, yet in
Darkest Dungeon
I was lazily read as either probably town or probably scum by just about everyone that didn't get shot, and nobody tried to sort me further.

I think with regards to people not explaining their reads, it became trendy to do so. There's players I'd describe as somewhat competent that do this, find scum and look cool for it. Then there's a dozen players for each one of those scummers that attempt it and do nothing. It's good as a reaction test/creating unavoidable pressure, but if that's your only tool and you smack town with it, you're just trying to derail day by being a VI. You have to actually find scum first.

Then there's people that seem to think activity(number of posts, fuck everything else)=towntell and as someone that dreads the thought of waking up to another day that makes me indescribably sick. Then again I'm just a lurksack/should quit mafia/and many worse things :left:
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:09 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 5, Desully wrote:Whether this behavior can be surpressed or not depends on the number of responsible players in a particular game.
Many player's want to seriously play the game, I reckon there's more responsible players than others around.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:13 am

Post by Cerberus v666 »

In post 4, wgeurts wrote:I know a fair amount agree with you there, though that doesn't mean you should be only using gut-reads. It also shouldn't be an excuse to not participate.
Gut reads are an acceptable STARTING POINT.

The issue is that people also view them as the ending point.

Instead of looking at their gut read and thinking "WHY do I feel this way, and how can I both confirm that my gut is correct, AND convince the town that my thoughts are justified?", they think "I trust my gut, it's usually right, and if I just keep repeating the same thing long enough people will give in."

@Lycan: Gut can be a reasonable way to decide on who to focus between two reads. If you establish equal likelihood for both as scum, and said likelihood is GREATER than that of everyone else, but one simply seems more scummy for indefinable reasons...push that one harder. Make that one your priority. Drag the extra content from them that you need to weigh the scales one way or another.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:16 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 6, Lycanfire wrote:-snip-
The essence of my post wasn't just about gut reads. Gut-reads are tolerable as long as you do back them up with something else, never use them alone as an explanation. I think you and I agree on that here to varying degrees.

It's good to see I'm not the only noting the trend. Some strong players are playing as individuals and try to carry the town themselves, whilst it shouldn't be a solo effort in the first place. Strong town players are in my eyes not only the ones who catch scum, but those that can actually get the town together and lead them through their reasoning until others follow. This isn't a town player who dictates what happens. Reads honestly should always be justified with only a very small amount of exceptions. If you're a vanilla townie you basically don't have any exception to rely on.

The current spam trend also isn't great. How hard is it honestly to compile your thoughts into one post instead of posting one liners all over the place? It simply buries information.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:30 am

Post by Creature »

What matters is playing to have fun. By saying "town must play like this. Period", you're taking away someone's fun. And it's not a matter of "if you don't want to play like this, you should quit mafia"

I agree that staying the whole game just saying "X is town/scum" or "this post is town/scum" is bad, but so is forcing every player to explain everything to the last detail. Don't let someone feed you, try to comprehend them.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:04 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 10, Creature wrote:What matters is playing to have fun. By saying "town must play like this. Period", you're taking away someone's fun. And it's not a matter of "if you don't want to play like this, you should quit mafia"

I agree that staying the whole game just saying "X is town/scum" or "this post is town/scum" is bad, but so is forcing every player to explain everything to the last detail. Don't let someone feed you, try to comprehend them.
Frankly, they're ruining the majority's fun. I'm willing to wager that the significant majority of the people playing mafia on this site came here from other sites to play on a more competitive level. MafiaScum is known for its competitive
somewhat elitist
nature. If you're going to play a game you should actually play the game to the best of your ability. If we dictated our meta on what was most fun mafia would be awful. If all you get fun out of is simply doing nothing in a game, there are plenty of other places to do that.

I shouldn't have to be putting in extra work to damage control a useless player, the fault is theirs so they either need to man up or get out.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:06 am

Post by wgeurts »

Look at EpicMafia: that is what a site looks like where fun is the priority.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:08 am

Post by Nahdia »

objection, epicmafia isn't fun. also people constantly complain about the site meta there too.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:14 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 13, Nahdia wrote:objection, epicmafia isn't fun. also people constantly complain about the site meta there too.
This is the point exactly. It at one point was actually a decent place to play mafia, if you just devolve it reaches a point where you just make the place rancid.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:15 am

Post by Creature »

In post 11, wgeurts wrote:Frankly, they're ruining the majority's fun.
I don't see many players having trouble with them, so it's probably not majority.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:17 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 15, Creature wrote:
In post 11, wgeurts wrote:Frankly, they're ruining the majority's fun.
I don't see many players having trouble with them, so it's probably not majority.
On the contrary, people are constantly getting frustrated with town who aren't doing anything. Most games don't pass without complaints about the engagement of the playerbase, or town players making awful moves simply because some can't be bothered to invest effort.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:20 am

Post by wgeurts »

It is also in the site-rules that you may not play against your win-condition. I've made the case why doing the above is doing so. If you don't want to invest effort don't play here.

I know this makes me sound like a jerk, but it is so. The fact we have people arguing why we shouldn't listen to other's theorising about best play shows the site meta is heading downwards.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:30 am

Post by Infinity 324 »

You're preaching so only the choir can hear.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:31 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 18, Infinity 324 wrote:You're preaching so only the choir can hear.
I've mentioned a few times in games during rants that I'd write a huge post on why people are playing awfully and need to change, now I have and I can simply refer to it whenever I wish.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:33 am

Post by Nahdia »

In post 17, wgeurts wrote:It is also in the site-rules that you may not play against your win-condition. I've made the case why doing the above is doing so.
Intent, my man.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 20, Nahdia wrote:
In post 17, wgeurts wrote:It is also in the site-rules that you may not play against your win-condition. I've made the case why doing the above is doing so.
Intent, my man.
It states play to win, not intentionally malicious behaviour.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:41 am

Post by Nahdia »

Defining "play to win" as anything other than "not actively trying to avoid winning" is a very, very dangerous road.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:47 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 22, Nahdia wrote:Defining "play to win" as anything other than "not actively trying to avoid winning" is a very, very dangerous road.
Play to win means try to play to win.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 am

Post by Nahdia »

Sure, but you can't say that someone who didn't give 100% wasn't playing to win in a rules sense. You just can't.
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