Making matrix-6 more balanced

[mhsmith0]

Not at all. Getting a UB turning into a JK is super OP for town late game after Roleblocker dies.

[nancy]

Er, UB doesn't take scum PRs?

[mhsmith0]

No and if it did, it'd be even stronger as two effective cop checks a night

[nancy]

Oh interesting. Didn't realize backups were alignment specific. And yeah duh, brain derp on the latter point lol.

[ThinkBig]

Shameless advertising that matrix 5, the set up that Creature designed, is now in signups!

viewtopic.php?p=9084127#p9084127

[TesXX]

	A	B	C
1	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Vanilla Townie	Town Jailkeeper	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker
	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie
	Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon

@Creature you may have solved the problem

[ThinkBig]

	A	B	C
1	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Vanilla Townie	Town Jailkeeper	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker
	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie
	Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon

@Creature you may have solved the problem

I like this set up a lot actually. JK+Tracker may be a bit OP for the town though. However JK + Tracker gives town more results

[nancy]

It isn't balanced. Columns A and B will have terrible winrates.

[Ircher]

How come?

[nancy]

Scum has no fakeclaim I think

[mhsmith0]

The matrix5 setup doesn't really solve the incentive to claim d1, instead it makes the tracker the incentivized claim d1 since doc always protects and JK always thinks about it. Incentivized day one claiming is the problem that MUST be solved by any setup.

[mhsmith0]

It isn't balanced. Columns A and B will have terrible winrates.

A and b there would presumably mimic current cop only and jk only win rates which are near 50%.

[Ircher]

then FN is a good choice.

UB is super tacky imo.

[nancy]

A and b there would presumably mimic current cop only and jk only win rates which are near 50%.

Ah, thought they were higher and that the layout would tip that further to give scum no breathing room.

Still don't see why Day 1 BP claim is incentivized in current setup.

UB is tacky but anything is better than the current situation with BP massclaim.

I don't think FN would work very well in newbies.

[ThinkBig]

The matrix5 setup doesn't really solve the incentive to claim d1, instead it makes the tracker the incentivized claim d1 since doc always protects and JK always thinks about it. Incentivized day one claiming is the problem that MUST be solved by any setup.

This is true. But in most cases the tracker will be roleblocked. The tracker results are too vital IMO to gambit with the wisdom

[nancy]

50/50. You essentially arrive at the same silly policy lynch territory as with BP claims because if JK is outed scum know 100% if there's actually a Tracker or not and it's 50/50 before that or 33 in Goon/Goon.

[TesXX]

The matrix5 setup doesn't really solve the incentive to claim d1, instead it makes the tracker the incentivized claim d1 since doc always protects and JK always thinks about it. Incentivized day one claiming is the problem that MUST be solved by any setup.

This is true. But in most cases the tracker will be roleblocked. The tracker results are too vital IMO to gambit with the wisdom

Why does nobody think of the roleblocker.
Not to mention that for the jailkeeper to protect the tracker, they'd have to roleblock them. So honestly tracker d1 claiming isn't optimal play in matrix 5.

[TesXX]

tracker d1 claiming isn't optimal play in matrix 5.

Obviously I'm talking about early day 1 claiming, not intent to hammer claiming.

[mhsmith0]

The matrix5 setup doesn't really solve the incentive to claim d1, instead it makes the tracker the incentivized claim d1 since doc always protects and JK always thinks about it. Incentivized day one claiming is the problem that MUST be solved by any setup.

This is true. But in most cases the tracker will be roleblocked. The tracker results are too vital IMO to gambit with the wisdom

This is wrong fwiw. If the Roleblocker is blocking tracker, then the jailkeeper can't be blocked, which is itself fairly useful info (should meta go that way anyway). In bp/tracker, a declared tracker just dies, which very bad for town. In jk/tracker/rb, incentives are more complex. And if you know it's tracker/doc/goons then tracker is incentivized to claim to get protected by doc. So at least POSSIBLY there's a baked in incentive for tracker to claim day 1, and presumably it'd be tested out, and then you have the same problem as you get right now.

[Ircher]

A and b there would presumably mimic current cop only and jk only win rates which are near 50%.

Ah, thought they were higher and that the layout would tip that further to give scum no breathing room.

Still don't see why Day 1 BP claim is incentivized in current setup.

UB is tacky but anything is better than the current situation with BP massclaim.

I don't think FN would work very well in newbies.

I think it would work better than UB. It has an active role and one has to be very careful who they message which helps encourage good reads.

[nancy]

Yea but I doubt newbies would know how to react to it either - they would most likely inadvertently out the FN just by read evolution meaning experienced scumteams would have disproportionately higher winrates.

[Ircher]

Well, then the IC can explain why immediately outing an FN is a poor move.

I honestly don't see that as a major concern.

[nancy]

I meant more that FN is inevitably going to be scumread and a newbie is inevitably going to move a slot from null or scumlean or worse to hard town overnight and it's going to be blatantly obvious.

[mhsmith0]

There's also the plausible chance that a FN visits the person who ate a NK, and then it's a "guilty" and suddenly both town PRs are outed and it's a turkey shoot for scum N2 and N3.

[ThinkBig]

The FN can still claim D1 and function as a universal IC and have the JK/tracker WIfOM