Making matrix-6 more balanced

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:58 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

And since tracker is already a pretty weak role (especially early game), anything that makes a guilty not REALLY a guilty for the role nerfs it (since in an FN model, tracker needs to be concerned that they might have screwed up and tracked the FN instead of the goon)
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:58 pm

Post by ThinkBig »

In post 97, nancy wrote:I meant more that FN is inevitably going to be scumread and a newbie is inevitably going to move a slot from null or scumlean or worse to hard town overnight and it's going to be blatantly obvious.
My theory in matrix6: never ever ever lynch a claimed PR who is not CC'd.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:59 pm

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In post 99, ThinkBig wrote:The FN can still claim D1 and function as a universal IC and have the JK/tracker WIfOM
Except scum know whether there's a JK or a tracker, because column A has a roleblocker and row 3 doesn't. So it only WIFOMs town, while scum get more info to work with.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:59 pm

Post by ThinkBig »

In post 100, mhsmith0 wrote:And since tracker is already a pretty weak role (especially early game), anything that makes a guilty not REALLY a guilty for the role nerfs it (since in an FN model, tracker needs to be concerned that they might have screwed up and tracked the FN instead of the goon)
This as well.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:00 pm

Post by Eddie Cane »

I don't think newbs can deal with fn straight up
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:00 pm

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In post 99, ThinkBig wrote:The FN can still claim D1
Another good reason to say no FN.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:01 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 101, ThinkBig wrote:
In post 97, nancy wrote:I meant more that FN is inevitably going to be scumread and a newbie is inevitably going to move a slot from null or scumlean or worse to hard town overnight and it's going to be blatantly obvious.
My theory in matrix6: never ever ever lynch a claimed PR who is not CC'd.
FWIW this is wrong, though obviously you never lynch a non-CC'd PR day 1 (and USUALLY not day 2). A doc or BP claim with a dead cop/jailkeeper is inherently sketchy since it could easily enough be a goon making a claim because it's a no RB setup and they know there will be no CC (this is also a downside to the current meta - once you get all claims of no BP and no tracker, then given goon-goon it's 50-50 whether there's a cop or a jailkeeper, making doctor a pretty attractive fakeclaim, and suddenly a d1 doc claim under duress is a lot sketchier looking).
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:02 pm

Post by Ircher »

why would fn claim D1? That defeats the purpose of the role. If we wanted that, we'd just use IC instead.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:02 pm

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In post 101, ThinkBig wrote:My theory in matrix6: never ever ever lynch a claimed PR who is not CC'd.
I mean, kind of but also no, there /are/ fakeclaims that happen where they won't be CCed and you ultimately just have to read into the claim and the ISO, which doesn't happen enough imo.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:03 pm

Post by ThinkBig »

In post 108, nancy wrote:
In post 101, ThinkBig wrote:My theory in matrix6: never ever ever lynch a claimed PR who is not CC'd.
I mean, kind of but also no, there /are/ fakeclaims that happen where they won't be CCed and you ultimately just have to read into the claim and the ISO, which doesn't happen enough imo.
The only safe fake claim for mafia is BP when we are in row 1.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:05 pm

Post by nancy »

You can also fakeclaim Doctor in Column B.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:06 pm

Post by Ircher »

And honestly, at this point, pretty much any role suggestion could be claimed D1 and be a universal IC.

That suggests that Matrix6's layout is the problem.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:06 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 110, nancy wrote:You can also fakeclaim Doctor in Column B.
You can also catch scum!Grey by making him fakeclaim doc when it turns out you're in row 1 not column B ;) :cool: :lol:
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:07 pm

Post by nancy »

In post 112, mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 110, nancy wrote:You can also fakeclaim Doctor in Column B.
You can also catch scum!Grey by making him fakeclaim doc when it turns out you're in row 1 not column B ;) :cool: :lol:
:lol:

I was actually thinking of that game when I wrote that post XDXD
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:08 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 111, Ircher wrote:And honestly, at this point, pretty much any role suggestion could be claimed D1 and be a universal IC.

That suggests that Matrix6's layout is the problem.
That's what the nightkill is for. The issue with a BP is that it has no activity utility at all, so (the theory goes) you might as well just claim it and avoid getting lynched later on when people don't believe you after a jailkeeper flip. Other power roles need to stay silent so that they can actually do stuff at night.
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Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:08 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 113, nancy wrote:
In post 112, mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 110, nancy wrote:You can also fakeclaim Doctor in Column B.
You can also catch scum!Grey by making him fakeclaim doc when it turns out you're in row 1 not column B ;) :cool: :lol:
:lol:

I was actually thinking of that game when I wrote that post XDXD
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:11 pm

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In post 114, mhsmith0 wrote:The issue with a BP is that it has no activity utility at all, so (the theory goes) you might as well just claim it and avoid getting lynched later on when people don't believe you after a jailkeeper flip.
This is such bad reasoning though. Like, the whole premise is that both you and other people might play bad therefore you should do this thing.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:17 pm

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In post 116, nancy wrote:
In post 114, mhsmith0 wrote:The issue with a BP is that it has no activity utility at all, so (the theory goes) you might as well just claim it and avoid getting lynched later on when people don't believe you after a jailkeeper flip.
This is such bad reasoning though. Like, the whole premise is that both you and other people might play bad therefore you should do this thing.
Well... kinda? I mean it also substantially empowers the tracker if there is NOT a BP since he can get doc protects indefinitely, but the "problem" that is being solved here is that BP is close to a named townie without any active abilities that can actually help, and that given its total lack of active utility, it makes some sense to claim while it can be "proven" true instead of later in the game when it could easily be a fake claim by scum in row 1 with a dead JK.

That argument basically ignores the fact that having a townclear right off the bat skews the day play in an artificial direction (which is why claiming on page 1 is antitown), but even there, the model has a baked in incentive to claim at some point day 1 because, well, why not. Which basically means that subbing in some other PR that has some kind of active ability for the BP role makes sense, because then you still have an incentive to stay hidden (because you can die at night, and because your night ability is potentially useful).
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
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Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:24 pm

Post by nancy »

But if the BP doesn't claim then there's a chance that scum hunt for Doc rather than put one into the Tracker? Like yes it's empowering but it's not completely one-sided.

Again I feel this stuff of scum fakeclaiming BP gold as Goon/Goon should be resolved via dayplay instead of mechanics or massclaiming strats. If JK dies and scum claim BP just judge the ISO and the way it was claimed to determine whether or not it's scum fakeclaiming. If it's a newbie, treat it as just a VT claim. If it's an experienced player, check if their play adds up for BP.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:25 pm

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But yes I agree with you that as long as BP claim strat is incentivized Day 1 for FTT then it should be replaced. Even if FTT isn't really that strong.
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