Making matrix-6 more balanced

[zakk]

There is too much meta surrounding this

Just make a pool of roles that may or may not be randomly selected

And have the mod randomize the role selection and eyeball it to see if it's not totally one sided, then run it by the list mod

Not all variants will be super pre-balanced, but all will be unpredictable, and setup spec will die out

This also leads to higher likelihood of cautious play by SEs and ICs

Which makes for a better learning experience for newbies anyway (which is the whole point)

Seems like a good solution to me. Has this not been somewhat tried before?

[TesXX]

One suggestion I have is maybe replace the BP with a backup tracker who starts with a VT role PM(this could prevent the town sided BP claiming strategy). They don't find out they're the backup tracker until

1)

the tracker dies

2)

the backup tracker dies or

3)

the game ends. In column A, the backup tracker would just be a regular tracker with a tracker role PM as there is no other tracker.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Backup Tracker	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

[ThinkBig]

I have just /ined to mod Matrix5 that creature designed. Let me know if you want to pre-in. I already have one pre-in.

viewtopic.php?p=9056535#p9056535

[Srceenplay]

what if BP becomes IC and Tracker becomes Watcher?

[ThinkBig]

I think that might be over powered. The watcher stays on the IC and the scum team has no way of killing the IC without being caught.

[Srceenplay]

not much different to bp claim to tracker claim and having doc stay on tracker.
Either way mafia can't kill a claimed BP so in the same way they can't kill a claimed IC.
Maybe its just a wash and not much improvement then.

[Alisae]

Some people feel as if Watcher is effortless and easy.
I think.

[TesXX]

I don't really think I want an innocent child in a newbie game. It kind of takes out the "You gotta defend yourself" part, which is important for newbies to use.

[TesXX]

One suggestion I have is maybe replace the BP with a backup tracker who starts with a VT role PM(this could prevent the town sided BP claiming strategy). They don't find out they're the backup tracker until

1)

the tracker dies

2)

the backup tracker dies or

3)

the game ends. In column A, the backup tracker would just be a regular tracker with a tracker role PM as there is no other tracker.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Backup Tracker	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

What do you humans think of this version?

[Eddie Cane]

ic should definitely not he in a newbie game. balance aside it does not help you learn large part of mafia, because you don't need to worry about getting lynched. plus ics aren'texactly common anyways so it's not overly important to practice playing as one.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Tes, i've seen that idea suggested before and i personally like it - though i think the backup tracker should just be a universal backup

[Loopdan]

Replacing BP with Universal Backup would liven up Newbie games for sure.

If anybody wants to run this set-up I'll pre-in.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Universal Backup	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

[RadiantCowbells]

I walk this empty street on the boulevard of broken dreams where the city sleeps and I'm the only one and I walk alone

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I walk this empty street on the boulevard of broken dreams where the city sleeps and I'm the only one and I walk alone

@______@

[TesXX]

Tes, i've seen that idea suggested before and i personally like it - though i think the backup tracker should just be a universal backup

Replacing BP with Universal Backup would liven up Newbie games for sure.

If anybody wants to run this set-up I'll pre-in.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Universal Backup	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

As long as the Backup doesn't know they're a backup, otherwise that kind of destroys the original reason I thought of it.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

imo it's better they do

otherwise it veers on bastard which isnt good for a newbie game imo and unlike a BP having a D1 claim strategy is a bad idea because scum can just kill the backup in a double goon setup and work around it in a roleblocker one

[Eddie Cane]

again, regardless of halance, you need to keep in mind what we are using this setup before. imo it's in bad taste to lie to newbies about their role. I'd also bet thered be lots of confusion about mid game role changes.

[TesXX]

imo it's better they do

otherwise it veers on bastard which isnt good for a newbie game imo and unlike a BP having a D1 claim strategy is a bad idea because scum can just kill the backup in a double goon setup and work around it in a roleblocker one

Good point, the roleblocker can just roleblock them and we all die fbidndbiehddhidjebdidjdbudosj

[nancy]

Whether its a good thing for winrates or not matrix 6 has been broken in terms of providing the kind of experience I think new players should get.

Completely agree. The BP claim strat just puts winrates ahead of playing experience and that goes against everything that the newbie queue should be about imo.

Having a slot on the board immediately that doesn't need to be sorted detracts from the experience of everyone involved and the way that newbies who have been put into those situations have responded (replacing out, barely posting, etc.) just goes to show that there's a basic flaw to it and it needs to stop happening.

[ThinkBig]

Here's another variant I was thinking of:

	A	B	C
1	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Jailkeeper
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Though I'd still need to figure out what to change the 1-shot BP to. Row 2 is very much town sided and can lead to follow the cop once the RB is dead. This here prevents follow the cop/tracker and does not allow for the tracker to claim once there are no bullet proof claims.

What are your thoughts?

[nancy]

It's really imbalanced. Row 1 sucks, Row 2 is overpowered, column A sucks, column B sucks, column C is okay I guess.

I don't think there's anything deeply wrong with matrix6 as it stands currently, MS Town meta just needs to improve.

Also making BP 2-shot is functionally the same as making it full BP because no scumteam is going to bother burying two shots into that vest regardless of who is wearing it.

[FireScreamer]

I like the universal backup one. Though I imagine im pretty awful at understanding these things.

[ThinkBig]

There has been a few discussions in some games about the balance of the matrix-6 set up. Here's the current set up:

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

One issue comes from where there is a bullet proof townie. Pine notes:

I'm actually thinking that the setup can be partially broken by a D1 bulletproof claim. It's very easy to disprove, as only 1/6 setups lack any roles that can counterclaim it. Scum therefore won't fakeclaim it, because a 1/6 chance of success isn't worth it. Your BP then becomes a partially-invincible IC, which is a great thing to have on D1 in a Micro. It also partially establishes which setup you're in, which severely hampers what fakeclaims scum might use. This is doubly true in a Newbie, where new scum players might not grok the setup table right away. "Oh, you've claimed Cop? Well, I'm a BP Townie, so no you aren't." This also leaves the JK or Tracker free to investigate, as the BPT will become the center of attention and likely a durable target.

I'd like to make a few proposed changes to the table.

Variation 1: Innocent Child

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Innocent Child	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

In this set up, the innocent child can claim whenever he wants via PM or by claiming in thread.

In addition to what Pine mentioned, a claimed BP townie can function as an innocent child that can't be easily killed by scum. Changing the BP town to innocent child can help by ensuring that there can be at least 1 confirm town in a set up without a cop and that it cannot be effectively death proof.

The only issue is in column A where a JK+BP exists together. The JK can continue jailing the IC until the mafia roleblocks the JK or kills it.

Variation 2:

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Tracker	Mafia Goon	Innocent Child

In this variation, the town tracker and the IC are flip flopped. I think this could be more balanced as a doctor-tracker set up can lead to a "follow the tracker" scenario once one mafia goon is killed, though once again, there is the issue of an IC+Doctor.

I'm thinking of working on some variations of Matrix 6 and running them as a test in the micro queue. Would anyone be interested in playing the variants?

Also, how would you make it more balanced?

What about 1-shot strongman instead of the role blocker?

[mhsmith0]

Roleblocker is there primarily to have a chance against cop/doc. 1 shot Strongman really doesn't help that all that much.

I'm somewhat in favor of changing to universal backup from BP just to reinstitute a meta that punishes claiming early, and nit messing with anything else.

[nancy]

UB has the potential to be utterly useless for Town though, if Roleblocker gets lynched before JK dies.