Setup Balance in a Different Forum

MortFeld · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:15 pm

Yo,

Very few of you know me probably. I came to MS after playing on a different forum (not EM) and I wanted to up my game. Gonna take a short hiatus from this site after some personal meltdowns (though tame compared to some I've seen on site).

I'll hopefully be modding a game on my home forum and I want to make it as balanced as possible. We've had issues with mods trying to cater game balance to player skill/forum meta, resulting in very town or scum sided setups (usually town sided).

What print resources are there for me to use to create an actually balanced game? Would anyone here be willing to work with me on the setup?

Accountant · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:23 pm

matrix9

MortFeld · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:25 pm

In post 1, Accountant wrote:matrix9

I was hoping for something a little more interesting, but maybe complexity comes at the cost of balance?

Accountant · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Well, I think that Matrix9 is a very interesting setup. Generally, setups considered "interesting" usually means the setup has a lot of factions, a variety of abilities or unique game mechanics. This makes the game, in turn, harder to balance.

If you like a well-balanced setup that has some interesting complexities, White Flag and Scumhunter's are good ones.

MortFeld · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:53 pm

Hm I guess the gripe I have with matrix9 is that it's semi-open, restricting gameplay somewhat, but making it closed actually eliminates some complexity.

I'll check out White Flag and Scumhunter's in the morning.

Umlaut · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:09 am

If you want a closed setup in a hurry, you can always just rip off an open setup but run it as a closed. Openness is usually somewhat beneficial to town so you might want to throw them an extra minor protective role or something.

Umlaut · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:16 am

In particular, C9++ or JK9++ would be pretty good for that approach.

Also, I'm running Scumhunter's right now if you want to see how it actually plays (but don't talk about it, obviously). Note that it's not really suitable to run as a closed.

Antihero · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:46 am

scumhunters speed is statistically shown to be insanely scumsided

Umlaut · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:00 am

In post 7, Antihero wrote:scumhunters speed is statistically shown to be insanely scumsided

N = 6

Antihero · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:56 am

pretty sure it's more than that. wiki page isn't updated.

i suspect the silent ev killer there is mostly even numbers. it's p much impossible to lynch scum if they don't bus

Antihero · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:01 am

anyway... it would be helpful if the op gave a few more details. namely, town win rates and a few examples of setups he deems imbalanced.

this is a good thread for minis: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=67307

MortFeld · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:56 pm

Thanks for the replies I'll try to get to this tonight.

MortFeld · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:40 pm

In post 10, Antihero wrote:anyway... it would be helpful if the op gave a few more details. namely, town win rates and a few examples of setups he deems imbalanced.

1: Scum
2: Scum
3: Scum (multiball)
4: SK variant
5: Town (a town player cheated)
6: Town
7: Town
8: Town
9: Scum
10: Town
11: Town
12: Scum
13: Scum

Overall

Scum: 6/13 (46%)
Town: 6/13 (46%)
Independent: 1/13

Winrate was skewed heavily toward town in the mid section there but overall scum tend to do better. I think town started doing better when we all joined this site, but scum caught up quickly.

Imbalanced setups hmm... main offenders I think are this one: http://smashtwittermafia.proboards.com/ ... nto-league

Scum Godfather
Scum Encryptor Lover
Scum Encryptor Lover
Scum Traitor Follower
Scum Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Cop
Town Vigilante
Town Thief (stole a specific aspect of a role, these were divided between "pokemon")
Town Jailkeeper
Town Beloved Princess
Town Enabler (dr what this was but I think it was useless)
Town Developer (this was useful I think, idr)
Town weird each night random between lie detector (absolutely broken)/BP doctor/judas (forgot what this was but it was anti-town)
Town Miller Roleblocker
Independent Executioner (ala ToS)

Basically everyone on town had a PR. Came from a weird part of our meta where everyone thought being VT was the worst thing in the world. Some still think this but w/e.

If you want another example lmk.

Antihero · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:00 pm

In post 12, MortFeld wrote:Winrate was skewed heavily toward town in the mid section there but overall scum tend to do better. I think town started doing better when we all joined this site, but scum caught up quickly.

errr....

i mean... you can get streaks when you flip a fair coin. that doesn't mean it's skewed.

your data actually suggests your setups are pretty well balanced.

Antihero · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:06 pm

depending on how predictable your site meta is, that may or may not be able to be broken by mass claim. here it likely wouldn't because every single one of those town roles could (and probably has at some point) be scum and with the exception of the godfather all the scum roles could be town. the roleblocker being repeated is gross though.

so the setup has issues but i don't really know if "balance" is necessarily one of them.

role madness is a tough nut to crack though. are most of your setups role madness or just that one?

Antihero · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:09 pm

oh holy crap that was open...

yeah that is broken by mass claim

lol

MortFeld · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:31 pm

In post 13, Antihero wrote:
In post 12, MortFeld wrote:Winrate was skewed heavily toward town in the mid section there but overall scum tend to do better. I think town started doing better when we all joined this site, but scum caught up quickly.
errr....

i mean... you can get streaks when you flip a fair coin. that doesn't mean it's skewed.

your data actually suggests your setups are pretty well balanced.

Individual setups have been very unbalanced, but I didn't realize there is no skew toward one alignment overall.

MortFeld · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:31 pm

Talk more when I get home.

Lycanfire · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:26 pm

my homesite had disdain for VT as well. a workaround for people that didn't want a pile of prs was that we ran a mafia variant where the mod created an original story theme and every role was a character in the story. at night players had the option to submit night scenes to advance the story, which could function as anything from a fruit vendor (we had no role like this) to a neighborhood or anything in-between. PRs had that option as well, but town PRs tried to be discreet, while I do remember scum PRs trying their luck just about every time.

that was a lot more palatable because the people that hated vt never put effort into trying to use their roles in this way. mods would put so-and-so's role interacts with A B C differently because reasons, rest are generic. most just shitposted to the mod without trying to figure anything out or declined to do anything making them vanilla.