Matrix6 BP fix

[Gamma Emerald]

Also Cop/Tracker would ruin many claim dynamics

[mhsmith0]

Also Cop/Tracker would ruin many claim dynamics

and town tracker/scum roleblocker is kind of a mess too

[MarioManiac4]

I made something. I'm not sure how good it is but I don't like the idea of Universal Backup (the Jailkeeper is a really annoying role, and if Mafia get it they shouldn't have to deal with it again even with a roleblocker. Also, two trackers would end up being somewhat problematic, although I suppose it would run fine.)

IPR:

1 INVESTIGATIVE (Cop/Tracker/Rolecop)
1 PROTECTIVE (Jailkeeper/Doctor/Roleblocker)
Cop and Jailkeeper are Tier 1, Tracker and Doctor are Tier 2, Rolecop and Roleblocker are Tier 3.

If Town gets 1 or more Tier One role and no Tier Three role (so Cop/Jailkeeper, Cop/Doctor, and Tracker/Jailkeeper) then Mafia get a Roleblocker and a goon. Otherwise they get a Tracker and a goon.

[TesXX]

ways to change the setup

• Universal Backup
  
  UB haz sweg
  
• Matrix 5
  
  You may know what Matrix 5 is, but if you don't it's a setup designed by Creature that you can see here.
  
• Strongman

  Rather than making the universal backup a thing in newbies, just give the scum a strongman instead of a roleblocker.

  That does nothing to solve the problem of bp being incentivized to claim d1 since it's still potentially useful in a tracker/bp setup. It also makes cop/doc row even more townsided.

  No. Bp claims. Scum shoot bp, just like any other pr.

  I think this isn't a bad way to stop BP claims(50% chance of death on following night). The goon in between tracker and BP could be changed to a strongman instead if people don't like the roleblocker->strongman idea.
  
• Universal Backup + Mafia Encryptor

  Just throwing something out there - Mafia Encryptor? I enjoyed the daytalk experiment.

  No it doesn't. It's a game changer, sure, but the point of this thread is to change the setup.
  
  It doesn't add any complexity at all. Why the hell would a newbie fid the concept of day talk confusing? They already can grasp night talk, just extend it to day.

  In terms of helping scum (if you think A is now too strong for town, especially since row 2: cop/doc/rb is the biggest town win rate), it MIGHT be ok to consider turning the roleblocker into a roleblocker/encryptor. OTOH, town win rates in cop/doc/rb are already under 60%, and I'd be pretty surprised if they cleared 60% in JK/UB/rb, so I'm kind of thinking that daytalk for scum is a solution in search of a problem.

  Giving one of the scumslots an encryptor power alone wouldn't help the BP claiming strategy, but I'm mostly thinking if UB matrix 6 were too townsided then they could add in an encryptor.
  
• Friendly Neighbor

Also, what about Friendly Neighbor?

I don't think friendly neighbor is a bad role. It's just not really my type. I'd be fine if they change BP to FN but I prefer the other ideas listed in this post.

[rb]

rb, you're also operating under the false assumption that new players can't be good

new players being good enough to be able to properly capitalise on playing a 1-shot BP role, is an outlier and not the norm - and not something to be balanced for

newbie games have an IC + 2-3 SE's for exactly that reason, that majority of new players aren't good. if the goal is to implement a change to improve

overall

town winrates in specific setups within matrix6, then the rare occasion of talented newbies (as a rule they're not) who also happen to get the 1-shot BP role (the odds of this are just so unlikely) is not a factor

[mhsmith0]

That's not the goal tho. The goal is to fix the broken experience of randing BP in current mayrix6 meta.

[Infinity 324]

make the newbie setup 7 vts and 2 goons.
that always works.

That's super scum-sided.

30% Town EV if I remember correctly.

I'd be surprised if it was that high

[mhsmith0]

Random lynching in 7v2 mountainous with a compulsive night kill by scum gets you 29.8% town win, 70.2% scum win.

Perfect scum win = 78% * 71% * 60% = 33%
Perfect town win = 22% * 14% = 3.2%
Town win w one mislynch = ... = 8.3%
Town win w two mislynches = ... = 18.4%
Scum win w one correct lynch = ... = 37%

And then to make an analogue to actual experience you account for town's ability to scum hunt, as well as scum's ability to influence the lynch. Of course, doing so is complicated so mainly you just acknowledge those things exist and that the random lynching model is illustrative more than precise.

[drealmerz7]

Random lynching in 7v2 mountainous with a compulsive night kill by scum gets you 29.8% town win, 70.2% scum win.

Perfect scum win = 78% * 71% * 60% = 33%
Perfect town win = 22% * 14% = 3.2%
Town win w one mislynch = ... = 8.3%
Town win w two mislynches = ... = 18.4%
Scum win w one correct lynch = ... = 37%

And then to make an analogue to actual experience you account for town's ability to scum hunt, as well as scum's ability to influence the lynch. Of course, doing so is complicated so mainly you just acknowledge those things exist and that the random lynching model is illustrative more than precise.

with day chat or night chat only?

[mhsmith0]

if you're random lynching, then day/night chat doesn't matter. because it's a model of a random lynch, and if the lynch is purely random, then you're presuming that the rest doesn't matter.

[Toomai]

If it were up to me, I'd use Backup6 for at least 30-40 games, look at the stats, and determine whether it's good enough to keep. Matrix6 has been the most balanced and consistent newbie setup so far (and most long-lived? unsure) and I see no need to make anything but the most minimal changes to try and fix the hotshot new meta.

[Nachomamma8]

If it were up to me, I'd use Backup6 for at least 30-40 games, look at the stats, and determine whether it's good enough to keep. Matrix6 has been the most balanced and consistent newbie setup so far (and most long-lived? unsure) and I see no need to make anything but the most minimal changes to try and fix the hotshot new meta.

Agreed.

[TesXX]

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Universal Backup	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker Encryptor	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Universal Backup	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker Encryptor	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Universal Backup	Mafia Encryptor	Town Tracker

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Universal Backup	Mafia Encryptor	Town Tracker

Which of these four do you human life forms like the most?

[-Grey-]

	A	B	C
1	Town Bodyguard	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

I'm kinda keen on this one.

Bodyguard instead of bulletproof, and swap it with Jailkeeper to prevent a Follow the Tracker strat.

[mhsmith0]

jk/tracker/goon is horribly townsided, and bodyguard/goon/goon is horribly scumsided. Also bodyguard is just an annoying role in general.

[Ircher]

Bodyguard works well. But don't swap it and the jk.

[mhsmith0]

If a tracker knows that he's either with a doc or a bg, he's debatably incentivized to claim sometime day 1. The reason why tracker d1 claims are antitown currently is that there's a 50% chance that he dies immediately N1 if shot because it's a BP that can't actually do anything. The relatively nice aspect of a UB there is that tracker is a sitting duck if he claims d1 50% of the time. Also bodyguard still sucks as a role, and jk/bg/rb is probably even more scumsided than the current jk/bp/rb.

[Ircher]

Thats true. I still prefer FN over UB.

[momo]

What if we had a Town Roleblocker

[Ircher]

Bad combo w/ scum JK.

[Ircher]

*RBer.

[-Grey-]

Bodyguard works well. But don't swap it and the jk.

That would just result in Follow the Tracker.

[Ircher]

Follow the Tracker isn't too bad and BG dies when it protects.

[-Grey-]

Follow the Tracker isn't too bad and BG dies when it protects.

It would still result in an inevitable early tracker claim that could impact newbies the way BP claiming does now.

[MarioManiac4]

is some sort of limited vig possible