Matrix6 BP fix

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Matrix6 BP fix

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:04 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

The easiest and simplest way to fix the BP issue that's popped up in matrix6 games is to just replace it with a different role. What are people's thoughts on replacing it with a backup (becomes tracker or jailkeeper if or when the first dies)?

That gets rid of the issue of incentivizing early bp claims (also makes it a risky scum fake claim since it's a role that can take actions and that can forcibly clear people), which I think is really the only current issue w the newbie setup.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:13 pm

Post by gigabyteTroubadour »

Yeah I've been in favor of that change for a while.

The only issue I see is newbies being confused about changing roles but I think it's kind of intuitive that a backup backs-up...?
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:15 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

Newbie games should have sample role pms near the start, so it's easy enough to see what it means, plus presumably at least some ic/se players would be clued in enough to further explain.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:47 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

backup jailkeeper is also really bad while a named townie backup tracker in that row is needlessly confusing for newbies


is there data proving that bp is causing an upswing of town winrates? i saw rc calling for the strat to be used as scum, and endgaming the bp.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:12 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

It's detrimental to development and interest, as claimed bps can get bored and lose interest. Fwiw I also think that it's a behavioral detriment to scumhunting, as people waste time with setup discussion and claim trains instead of working to determine alignment, and that this materially hurts town win rates over the long run.

Bottom line: it's negative for player development, and the mechanical benefit is much lower than people think.

Ps why is backup jk "really bad"? And how is backup tracker confusing to newbies?
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Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
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Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:18 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

backup jk excuses jk shitplay and ensures a strong lategame pr

backup tracker with jk as a named townie as a work around in place of UB is dumb
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:34 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

Backup is backup. So he'd inherit either tracker or jk ability depending on setup.

Late game pr is only useful if Roleblocker is dead; if Roleblocker lives town still up shit creek.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:35 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I like this idea but I think there's better idea :?:
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

If there is a better idea, then even better. What are you thinking of?
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:00 pm

Post by UpTooLate »

Egoing this thread for now, bed time!
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:54 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

I don't think newbies are too likely to be confused about the change.

I do agree that the BP strategy that popped up is probably harmful to newbie games and this is a good fix for it; I have a couple concerns (universal backup seems significantly stronger than BP, seems like it swings too hard against the scumteam when one scum goes down), but I definitely think it's something we should try out.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:39 am

Post by Toomai »

Could I put my vote into "if you change the setup, change its name"? We can't have someone say "Matrix6" and have anyone thinking "which one?" The daytalk experiment provided enough confusion.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:47 am

Post by Psyche »

could use version numbers
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:01 am

Post by Titus »

Rather than making the universal backup a thing in newbies, just give the scum a strongman instead of a roleblocker.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:03 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

That does nothing to solve the problem of bp being incentivized to claim d1 since it's still potentially useful in a tracker/bp setup. It also makes cop/doc row even more townsided.
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BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:04 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

I don't like strongman vs jailkeeper interactions either.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:05 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In particular, if JK properly identifies the nightkill and scum have absolutely no idea who they are, don't think the kill should go through.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:23 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Strongman is awful
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:36 am

Post by FireScreamer »

I've yet to see a reasonable point against the change to UB. Seems like a quick, easy and impactful fix.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:12 pm

Post by Toomai »

One potential wrinkle with a BP->Backup switch is that it lowers uncertainty of Tracker results. In Matrix6, if a Tracker sees a visit but there was no kill, it could mean:
  1. He tracked scum to the Doctor's target. (setup C)
  2. He tracked the Doctor to the scum's target. (setup C)
  3. He tracked scum to the BP. (setup 3)
In "Backup6", #3 is no longer possible, and so getting a visit to a no-kill confirms the setup is C and enables Follow the Tracker. I feel like this isn't too big an issue since it's a corner case, FtT isn't too strong until one scum dies, and setup C doesn't exactly have a high town winrate already. But it's a consideration.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:05 pm

Post by Accountant »

I would like to point out that people are not very stupid. Universal Backup is a simple role that can be easily grasped by even newbies.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:07 pm

Post by Alisae »

Accountant.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:44 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 14, mhsmith0 wrote:That does nothing to solve the problem of bp being incentivized to claim d1 since it's still potentially useful in a tracker/bp setup. It also makes cop/doc row even more townsided.
No. Bp claims. Scum shoot bp, just like any other pr.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:44 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 16, Nachomamma8 wrote:In particular, if JK properly identifies the nightkill and scum have absolutely no idea who they are, don't think the kill should go through.
Strongman should be one shot, factional.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:39 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 19, Toomai wrote:One potential wrinkle with a BP->Backup switch is that it lowers uncertainty of Tracker results. In Matrix6, if a Tracker sees a visit but there was no kill, it could mean:
  1. He tracked scum to the Doctor's target. (setup C)
  2. He tracked the Doctor to the scum's target. (setup C)
  3. He tracked scum to the BP. (setup 3)
In "Backup6", #3 is no longer possible, and so getting a visit to a no-kill confirms the setup is C and enables Follow the Tracker. I feel like this isn't too big an issue since it's a corner case, FtT isn't too strong until one scum dies, and setup C doesn't exactly have a high town winrate already. But it's a consideration.
True, but it's IMO less of an unbalancing issue than BP auto claiming and then tracker knows that he's dealing with a doc if there's no BP claim. And just generally FTT is relatively weak barring an early scum death, and I think it's probably healthy to have a structure where early scum deaths are basically always really bad for scum team.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
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Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
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Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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