Matrix6 BP fix

[FireScreamer]

Is this anywhere near an actual change yet? I want to play in the queue again.

[Zachrulez]

a setup that is actually mathmatically 50/50 balanced

Surely you understand the difference between the mathematical balance of a setup and the win rate a setup yields through play?

[mhsmith0]

IIRC the mathematical balance of a setup inherently relies on semi arbitrary assumptions, such as (for instance) random lynching, random night actions, etc. So when you say "mathematical balance" it is difficult to know exactly what you are trying to say.

[RadiantCowbells]

If scum aren't bussing it's inherently harder to lynch scum though

[Ranmaru]

Here is my idea:

Row 1	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Row 2	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Row 3	Town Mason	Town Mason	Mafia Rolecop
Row 4	Town Cop	Town Doctor	Mafia Roleblocker

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Mason seems broken.

[BTD6_maker]

Row 2 is scumsided. Also, Mafia can deduce a lot about the setup from their own roles, so in the Mason setup they know exactly which row they are in.

Masons are no better than two PRs in most cases, so Row 3 seems worse for Town than Cop+Doc+RB or indeed Doc+Tracker in ordinary Matrix6, except here Mafia can find the Masons. When both are alive they can stop counterclaims, but this is true the majority of the time in Matrix6 (and always in Doc/Tracker).

Mathematical balance is very hard to calculate for complex setups and (even with the assumption of randomness unless there is a reason not to be random) can require a lot of game theory. A full mathematical analysis is almost certainly unfeasible by hand and complicated to do by computer, but it would be guaranteed to find any breaking strategies as well as give the total probability. I could try it for simpler setups like List3, but even with Matrix6 it is hard.

However, Mafia is non-random overall. Random lynching might be a good approximation, but it could go either way. If Town form good reads, the probability of a scum lynch goes up. If scum coordinate well, the probability could go down. Newbies tend to be less skilled than SEs and ICs, so a scumteam of SE+IC may have a better probability of winning than a scum team of two newbies. Empirical data is probably best in this case.

A queue dedicated to testing candidates for Newbies could be helpful.

[MarioManiac4]

A queue dedicated to testing candidates for Newbies could be helpful.

you mean the micro queue?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Mason seems like it just encourages the BP strategy.

[Ranmaru]

\I feel that with Masons, there is only the confirmation and discussion advantage, that is it. Plus, it can generate fun. Newbies really enjoy scum due to the team aspect and discussion, I feel Mason can add to that for townies as well. Plus it doesn't actually help with determining scum. Finding scum only depends on their scumhunting skill. What masons help with is transparency.

Thanks BTD. I wonder though, is it bad for Scum to know which row they are in? Doesn't that encourage strategy? Or is this falling into the 'BP CLAIM" territory? Hmm. I just thought it was ok since scum always seem to know the setup's big picture before town does, informed minority and all.

[Ranmaru]

Mason seems like it just encourages the BP strategy.

Really? I see. Maybe this is because it's an open setup. Hmm. Would neighbors help? Masonizer? Etc.

If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.

If the only problem is the BP claiming strategy, then we should just replace the 1-shot BP by a Universal Backup. It means we keep what's working well and give the town a bit more power in the two set-ups that have historically been most scum-sided. Going back to 2of4 would be markedly worse.

[RadiantCowbells]

If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.

If the only problem is the BP claiming strategy, then we should just replace the 1-shot BP by a Universal Backup. It means we keep what's working well and give the town a bit more power in the two set-ups that have historically been most scum-sided. Going back to 2of4 would be markedly worse.

Universal backup change is a nerf in the tracker setup.

[mhsmith0]

Does it? BP/Tracker is pretty nerfed for town, since BP can't actually do anything active, and you'll never stop two nightkills unless scum choose to no kill for whatever reason. Tracker/backup means that if scum ever blow a shot (missing PR) after first scum lynch, it's a guaranteed inno or guilty, which is somewhat strong I think, whereas in say tracker/doctor, if the tracker dies n1, then town has nearly zero power left.

[Nachomamma8]

Universal backup change is a nerf in the tracker setup.

Don't think I agree with this

[Ranmaru]

I am good with that CES, as long as it banishes the BP strategy.

Be gone BP strategy

[Ranmaru]

Seriously let us make a decision boys and girls.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah I want to attempt to start being an IC but this is holding me back. Do the cons outweigh the pros for just replacing BP with UB? Explain like I'm 5.

[Ranmaru]

Same Lil Uzi. Want to IC as well.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah I want to attempt to start being an IC but this is holding me back. Do the cons outweigh the pros for just replacing BP with UB? Explain like I'm 5.

No they don't. Because I say so.

Now who wants candy!

[Ranmaru]

What kind of candy?

[Ranmaru]

Wait a minute...

[mhsmith0]

You have to get in my van before I can show you

[Lil Uzi Vert]

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=71789&start=550

But I never got to track

GG! It was a fun game. Although I don't think a backup is a good alternative for the BP. Especially if you compare it to a doc.

The problem is there is no good replacement for BP.
UB is probably the best I think. Just plain removal didn't work. Fn6 and Rb6 are in signups, and you guys should totes join them, but I'm not sure if they will work much better than this.

Mod; was there scum/dead PTs?

Yeah, although there isn't much there
Dead Thread
Scum Topic
Mod Topic

Regarding UB, I think the only issue is that it might be boring to play. I think the difficulty level here was about what it should be; after a day 1 scum lynch and PR NK, BTD6 had a tough game but by no means impossible if they played well enough. And a doctor would have been even stronger here, but I don't think tracker/backup is scumsided. (Tracker/doctor is townsided if tracker is forced to claim early.)

Considering joining FN6, I think it's an interesting idea.

I just think the chances of the UB actually being able to do anything are kinda low.

Think I'm with Mario here.

[mhsmith0]

UB doing anything in row 3 is somewhat low odds, but IF he's able to get a shot off, it becomes super strong, with very solid odds of being a major difference maker.

Which I think is fine, since it's a supporting role, not the main role. The supporting role on the matrix SHOULDN'T be super strong, especially in a row or column without a roleblocker.