Matrix6 BP fix

[Ircher]

Also, what about Friendly Neighbor?

[drealmerz7]

I think that sort of role is just too non-basic for noob games

modifiers and hoods, just too much

I really think it is fine how it is and we need to work on shifting site meta

[Ircher]

Drealm, do you even know what Friendly Neighbor is?

[drealmerz7]

perhaps not if you are asking me that question

I thought I knew what friendly modifier was, know what neighbor is, sooo...maybe I'm mistaken on it, and I'm going to look

[drealmerz7]

oh, okay then

well, shit, even more reason not to put it in a noob game, that will just add confusion to understanding neighbors

why isn't that role just called "friend" ????

[drealmerz7]

I seriously thought friendly was a modifier that did not allow whoever had the modifier to be killed by someone of the same alignment (really just a town modifier)

(so if you have a friendly towny they can't be vigged by a town vig, or a friendly tracker can't be PGOd, etc.) - heh

[Ircher]

I'm not aware of this friend modifier you speak of; to most, Friendly Neighbor is a well understood role.

[drealmerz7]

clearly I was making assumptions based on my own brain trying tofigure it out rather than any imperical knowledge

[mastina]

(Friendly Neighbor was the name of the role before Neighbors were called Neighbors, so that's why it has the similar role name to Neighbors: Friendly Neighbor was a popular role back in the day which existed years ago. PokerFace, either not knowing, not remembering, or not thinking about the possible confusion, when naming masons-who-aren't-alignment-confirmed, came up with the name 'Neighbors'. Friendly Neighbors have existed as a role predating Neighbors, and thus technically have more right to the name than Neighbors do. It's a legacy thing.)

[Radical Rat]

I don't believe a change is necessary.

BP claims D1
Scum counterclaims
Traditional day-based scumhunting to decide which one to lynch.

While this exact turn of events is not ideal, as a correct lynch here pretty much seals the deal for Town, it does encourage scumhunting instead of using BP as a crutch, and doesn't give the BP a free pass. I also believe that the fear of being lynched over a false counterclaim should dissuade the BP from insta-claiming.

[MMM]

Why would scum ever cc BP? Wouldn't they be better off using 2 nights to kill it?

[drealmerz7]

town BP should never claim town BP unless they are put to L-1 - just like any other claim, really

you want scum to not know who the BP is so they waste a shot on them, it's really basic

if anything the BP can hint at being a PR to try and draw the NK and make scum waste the shot

or at least have great involvement, teamwork, and scumhunting attempts to try and draw the NK

you see how the matrix6 is setup? there is a town JK in column A where the BP is also located

that means if there is no NK, scum don't know if they were JKed, their target was JKed, or if their target was the BP

if any change could even be considered to the matrix6, I'd say add another mafiaRB to it in the 1C or 3B positions so that they are even more unable to figure out what the setup is, but I really think it is pretty perfect how it is

[nancy]

Let's not derail this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71073

[TesXX]

town BP should never claim town BP unless they are put to L-1 - just like any other claim, really

There have been multiple explanations from multiple people stating why an early BP claim is better than an early pther-PR claim(unless of course it's the tracker claim afterwards).

you want scum to not know who the BP is so they waste a shot on them, it's really basic

It's not the end of the world if scum gets to kill someone night 1. Plus, with scum needing to hit BP 2 times to kill them, it gives people a confTown that will be alive for at least day 2.

if any change could even be considered to the matrix6, I'd say add another mafiaRB to it in the 1C or 3B positions

I disagree. The setup's already more scumsided.

[nancy]

Let's not derail this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71073

[rb]

doctor + tracker is fine

as is doc + roleblocker + JK

~

not sure how the 'meta' change would affect how people play in other setups if you changed it to doc, but for the 2 setups it directly affects, it's not an issue at all since column A and row 3 are scumsided at the moment anyway.

[rb]

it's not necessarily a bad thing that it makes claims harder to CC in other setups, especially as in a lot of games you don't have that luxury. scum fakeclaiming is a thing in all kinds of games (less so in Open) that are played on this site, so that shouldn't be deliberately avoided in Newbie games _UNLESS_ you intend to make more setups 'Open' on the site. which i don't see happening as people seem to really enjoy making fun setups and discussing balance etc.

[drealmerz7]

There have been multiple explanations from multiple people stating why an early BP claim is better than an early pther-PR claim(unless of course it's the tracker claim afterwards).

and they're wrong

[rb]

depends on the BP player

good player who can draw NK = don't claim

newbie who doesn't even think more would go like = just claim and be conftown

which is why the role despite its apparently simplicity is actually bad for newbie games, because using it correctly requires a good player

[drealmerz7]

the same could be argued of any role, or of drawing scum, rb

it gives opportunity for learning

[rb]

doctor is ez, u press button and receive protect bacon

lots of scumslots replace out in newbies too, but you can't remove or change 'scum' because it has to be in the game

BP is complex because drawing an NK is very complex and hard for people without the right personality or mindset in the game. it also doesn't necessarily _need_ to be in a game, and it's perfectly fine to replace it with something more intuitive for a new town player to use.

none of this would remove 'opportunity for learning' - so your point is moot

[Radical Rat]

Been thinking on this more, and what about a 1-shot vig? They aren't gonna want to claim, and the role relies on their ability to develop good reads more than any other (Normal) role.

Possibly switch Doc and Tracker as well, so RBer can balance it in A, and Doc can balance it in 3, but that can be worked out later.

[drealmerz7]

rb, you're also operating under the false assumption that new players can't be good

[Gamma Emerald]

Been thinking on this more, and what about a 1-shot vig? They aren't gonna want to claim, and the role relies on their ability to develop good reads more than any other (Normal) role.

Possibly switch Doc and Tracker as well, so RBer can balance it in A, and Doc can balance it in 3, but that can be worked out later.

no
I think that would lead to large scum win rates where the vig is involved.

[mhsmith0]

Been thinking on this more, and what about a 1-shot vig? They aren't gonna want to claim, and the role relies on their ability to develop good reads more than any other (Normal) role.

Possibly switch Doc and Tracker as well, so RBer can balance it in A, and Doc can balance it in 3, but that can be worked out later.

1) Vigs in newbies are bad, because you have solid odds of losing a mislynch due to a shot on town, and then town gets fewer chances to get it right. Vigs who take shitty shots are also liable to take a lot of postgame shit, and I REALLY don't think that newbie games are a good place to make "your awful night actions cost us the game" a potential postgame discussion template.

2) There's no real advantage to switching the doc and tracker, and a doctor/1-shot vig as a design (your new row 3) is super scum-sided for a newbie.

3) We're also trying to make as few changes as possible to a setup that essentially just works currently, with one very specific problem that we want to fix, as opposed to potentially creating all sorts of new problems by over-adjusting.