Matrix6 BP fix
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Surely you understand the difference between the mathematical balance of a setup and the win rate a setup yields through play?In post 574, mhsmith0 wrote:In post 573, Zachrulez wrote:a setup that is actually mathmatically 50/50 balanced- mhsmith0
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IIRC the mathematical balance of a setup inherently relies on semi arbitrary assumptions, such as (for instance) random lynching, random night actions, etc. So when you say "mathematical balance" it is difficult to know exactly what you are trying to say.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
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Row 2 is scumsided. Also, Mafia can deduce a lot about the setup from their own roles, so in the Mason setup they know exactly which row they are in.
Masons are no better than two PRs in most cases, so Row 3 seems worse for Town than Cop+Doc+RB or indeed Doc+Tracker in ordinary Matrix6, except here Mafia can find the Masons. When both are alive they can stop counterclaims, but this is true the majority of the time in Matrix6 (and always in Doc/Tracker).
Mathematical balance is very hard to calculate for complex setups and (even with the assumption of randomness unless there is a reason not to be random) can require a lot of game theory. A full mathematical analysis is almost certainly unfeasible by hand and complicated to do by computer, but it would be guaranteed to find any breaking strategies as well as give the total probability. I could try it for simpler setups like List3, but even with Matrix6 it is hard.
However, Mafia is non-random overall. Random lynching might be a good approximation, but it could go either way. If Town form good reads, the probability of a scum lynch goes up. If scum coordinate well, the probability could go down. Newbies tend to be less skilled than SEs and ICs, so a scumteam of SE+IC may have a better probability of winning than a scum team of two newbies. Empirical data is probably best in this case.
A queue dedicated to testing candidates for Newbies could be helpful."one of these days i'll read you correctly" - Transcend, Micro 714- MarioManiac4
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you mean the micro queue?In post 581, BTD6_maker wrote: A queue dedicated to testing candidates for Newbies could be helpful.- Lil Uzi Vert
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\I feel that with Masons, there is only the confirmation and discussion advantage, that is it. Plus, it can generate fun. Newbies really enjoy scum due to the team aspect and discussion, I feel Mason can add to that for townies as well. Plus it doesn't actually help with determining scum. Finding scum only depends on their scumhunting skill. What masons help with is transparency.
Thanks BTD. I wonder though, is it bad for Scum to know which row they are in? Doesn't that encourage strategy? Or is this falling into the 'BP CLAIM" territory? Hmm. I just thought it was ok since scum always seem to know the setup's big picture before town does, informed minority and all.Last edited by Ranmaru on Mon May 22, 2017 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.- Ranmaru
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Really? I see. Maybe this is because it's an open setup. Hmm. Would neighbors help? Masonizer? Etc.In post 583, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Mason seems like it just encourages the BP strategy.
If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.- Cogito Ergo Sum
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If the only problem is the BP claiming strategy, then we should just replace the 1-shot BP by a Universal Backup. It means we keep what's working well and give the town a bit more power in the two set-ups that have historically been most scum-sided. Going back to 2of4 would be markedly worse.In post 585, Ranmaru wrote:If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
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Universal backup change is a nerf in the tracker setup.In post 586, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
If the only problem is the BP claiming strategy, then we should just replace the 1-shot BP by a Universal Backup. It means we keep what's working well and give the town a bit more power in the two set-ups that have historically been most scum-sided. Going back to 2of4 would be markedly worse.In post 585, Ranmaru wrote:If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- mhsmith0
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Does it? BP/Tracker is pretty nerfed for town, since BP can't actually do anything active, and you'll never stop two nightkills unless scum choose to no kill for whatever reason. Tracker/backup means that if scum ever blow a shot (missing PR) after first scum lynch, it's a guaranteed inno or guilty, which is somewhat strong I think, whereas in say tracker/doctor, if the tracker dies n1, then town has nearly zero power left.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
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Don't think I agree with thisIn post 587, RadiantCowbells wrote:Universal backup change is a nerf in the tracker setup."Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
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No they don't. Because I say so.In post 592, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Yeah I want to attempt to start being an IC but this is holding me back. Do the cons outweigh the pros for just replacing BP with UB? Explain like I'm 5.
Now who wants candy!Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- Ranmaru
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- Lil Uzi Vert
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viewtopic.php?f=83&t=71789&start=550
In post 556, BananaNSFW wrote:But I never got to track
GG! It was a fun game. Although I don't think a backup is a good alternative for the BP. Especially if you compare it to a doc.In post 557, MarioManiac4 wrote:The problem is there is no good replacement for BP.
UB is probably the best I think. Just plain removal didn't work. Fn6 and Rb6 are in signups, and you guys should totes join them, but I'm not sure if they will work much better than this.
Mod; was there scum/dead PTs?In post 558, Something_Smart wrote:Yeah, although there isn't much there
Dead Thread
Scum Topic
Mod Topic
Regarding UB, I think the only issue is that it might be boring to play. I think the difficulty level here was about what it should be; after a day 1 scum lynch and PR NK, BTD6 had a tough game but by no means impossible if they played well enough. And a doctor would have been even stronger here, but I don't think tracker/backup is scumsided. (Tracker/doctor is townsided if tracker is forced to claim early.)
Considering joining FN6, I think it's an interesting idea.
Think I'm with Mario here.In post 559, BananaNSFW wrote:I just think the chances of the UB actually being able to do anything are kinda low.- mhsmith0
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UB doing anything in row 3 is somewhat low odds, but IF he's able to get a shot off, it becomes super strong, with very solid odds of being a major difference maker.
Which I think is fine, since it's a supporting role, not the main role. The supporting role on the matrix SHOULDN'T be super strong, especially in a row or column without a roleblocker.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think? - mhsmith0
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