Titus Academy: Article 1 - Town Cohesion

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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:23 pm

Hey, I know mastina has an academy and some people have asked my advice about particular topics. So I'm putting together a brief thread of my own here. This includes some of my own mistakes and I'm not perfect here before we begin.

Article 1: Town Cohesion

I am seeing an issue abound in many many large themes and across site. That is the town lacks a certain amount of cohesion and efficiency. It happens in Opens and minis to but is much more prevalent in large themes. They forget this isn't just exclusively a mystery game. It's a team game. Everyone has a role to play.

Myth 1: There's still Y days left in the deadline. Let's not lynch X.
Answer: Does it matter? Is the player scum? Is the wagon town driven? Will this wagon help me solve the game with it's flip? The deadline is irrelevant. Games from before my time had no deadline. Having such a setup encourages scum not to play the game until some feeling time before the deadline or unless a scumfuck actually gets wagoned.

Myth 2: I really need this lynch.
Answer 2: Unless you're an investigative with a guilty, you don't. You may need to feel communicated and included in the process. Ok. Great. If you've gone on for 2 back and forth pages and it's just you yelling at your target, no one is reading that crap and thinking wow amazing. People are reading that and thinking, ok when can we get back to playing mafia. If you feel a particular lynch is needed to help you progress in the game, detail that. But if all your townreads disagree, agree to disagree and focus on sorting other players.

Myth 3: If I don't tunnel on this player, they'll get away.
Answer: Have a little more faith in your fellow players than that. If you're clear and compassionately working with your townreads, they'll know who you scumread. If and when you die (because as a whole barring a bunch of conftown correct players die first), your death serves as a guidepost. But by tunneling on a player, you actually diminish your own credibility. Players who disagree with you and if you're correct the scum themselves will dismiss you as an obvious town tunneller. If players are not receptive to the message, then you have to work twice as hard to gain an inch with every post you make.

Myth 4: If players don't lynch within my scumpool, they are scum/useless/dumb/whatever.
Answer 4: Unless every player is literally confirmed town, this inaccurate. Players can and should welcome disagreement (unless it gets into myths 2 and 3). Scumreading or shouting down players doesn't cause them to listen or suddenly get smarter. I'll admit I'm not a saint on this one here. Players should hash out when their reads disagree until they come to either a consensus or a mutual agree to disagree with each player understanding why. If all the players who have a particular skillset start dying, it probably indicates that skillset is needed. If all the players who read people based on emotional tells are dead and the wall players are engaging in wall fights, it's probably best to take a step back and use those tools. This is especially true if it's not your strength. If all the wallposters detailing setup are dead, it's probably because there is a setup anomaly.

Myth 5: My vote should always be on my number 1 scumread at all times.
Myth 6: No. Your vote should always be on the vote that helps town win at all times. Sometimes that's voting your number one scumread. Sometimes that's voting to end a day that your townreads really need to end. Sometimes that's policy lynching that person that's annoying everyone in the town (sorry for all the times I may have). There's a reason the role PMs say your vote is your power and policy lynches are a thing. Voting people helps indicate to them that what they are doing is anti-town to you.

Myth 6: I cannot get anyone to work with me. They won't vote my scumreads.
Answer 6: That's not working with you. That's doing what you want. Working with you involves promoting your good skills and limiting the bad skills. Town is a team, just like scum is. Would you tell your scumread to go do what it is that likely gets them lynched because they refused to nightkill the townie you wanted? No. Yet, town all the time tell their townreads to basically go to hell because they won't lynch their scumpool.

Question: Great, so if voting my scumreads isn't working with me, then what is?
Answer: Glad you asked...the short answer is the most annoying one... it depends.

If you're dealing with someone who deals more with hard data, get them hard data to work with.
If you're dealing with someone who is literal, watch the words you pick carefully.
If you're dealing with someone who reads emotions, wear your heart on your sleeve. Try and make yourself as easy to read as possible.
If your townreads need to end the day and you don't townread the wagon they want, get on the wagon.

How to work with someone is as varied as they are as the player.
I'm someone who needs to hold things. I need to understand why you feel the way you do. There are some reads that I'll always be slower to understand, but I go out of my way to learn them.

You likely cannot work with every single town player in the thread. This harkens back to Fire's thread on Charisma in mafia (which I'll just incorporate by reference). If one townread needs more time to sort something while another needs a shorter deadline, occasionally you might have to make a choice. The important thing is to make everyone feel included in the decision. This is doubly true if they compromise off their lynch.

Town is a team and needs to work off the same playbook. Each player has skills that another does not. You cannot very well have one player think football and another player throw the ball at a basket. You reward yourself for sliding a puck along the ice because it landed a scum lynch. Guess what? The next day will still be harder because town isn't talking to each other but focused on being right.

Some practical tips (even if off the wall):

Look and answer why people feel like you don't work well

Is it you post too much?
Try things that make you post less, such as posting exclusively in memes. Sure, it's fake and arbitrary but it slows you way down and forces you to think and gets your point across. It's a strategy I used effectively as town in Borderlands and made it much easier for players to read me.

Is it that you don't co-operate or viewed as a stick in the mud?
Only vote wagons that have another player on them at the time you vote, and if a wagon is a solo wagon for 48 hours, move your vote. If you can't have your vote on a vanity wagon, then you're naturally going to think in terms of which out of the available choices is good to me.

Is it that you can't see a particular playstyle's worth but it actually is quite effective?
Identify a town player with that playstyle. Lynch within their scumpool (as long as it has as many suspects as possible scum).
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Lil Uzi Vert
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:03 pm

I disagree with the first one being a myth. Sometimes there really is too much time left and enough people either haven't posted or have said very little which leads to lynches that bring zero information.

I'm gulity of the third and fourth one so I'd like advice there. I get very frustrated when something makes sense in my head but no one else sees it and as a result I start spamming and tuning out the game. Think my scum read on the Jae and mastina hydra in Civilization Mafia. I'm unsure on the fifth. I don't believe in policy lynches and I really hate compromising on obvious town.

I can do more of the 3 out of the 4 first four suggestions except data. I hate data and I get really angry when people try to use it get reads. Think me just trolling Math and nancy in Civilization Mafia.

I want to say why I don't work well with others is my lack of cooperativeness but every time I've been stubborn on reads I've been right so I'm not sure.

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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:31 am

In post 1, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I disagree with the first one being a myth. Sometimes there really is too much time left and enough people either haven't posted or have said very little which leads to lynches that bring zero information.


Correct. This is more for the times when town settle on a wagon but someone arbitrarily says the deadline isn't close enough.


In post 1, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I'm gulity of the third and fourth one so I'd like advice there. I get very frustrated when something makes sense in my head but no one else sees it and as a result I start spamming and tuning out the game. Think my scum read on the Jae and mastina hydra in Civilization Mafia.


Spamming indicates a player doesn't feel heard. I kinda went out of my way to tell you why I wasn't voting notice, so you could try and persuade Math. Persuasion is about finding people's resistance to a wagon and lowering it. See Fire's charisma thread. If someone hard TRs you, they should be willing to detail why. Btw, there was zilch wrong with your notice case to me.

In post 1, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I don't believe in policy lynches and I really hate compromising on obvious town.


If the slot is known to be town, it's harder. If someone is engaged in dramatic anti-town crap and you don't know the alignment, they are a perfect compromise lynch in a confused or fractured town and prevent scum coasting.

In post 1, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I disagree with the first one being a myth. Sometimes there really is too much time left and enough people either haven't posted or have said very little which leads to lynches that bring zero information.

I'm gulity of the third and fourth one so I'd like advice there. I get very frustrated when something makes sense in my head but no one else sees it and as a result I start spamming and tuning out the game. Think my scum read on the Jae and mastina hydra in Civilization Mafia. I'm unsure on the fifth. I don't believe in policy lynches and I really hate compromising on obvious town.

I can do more of the 3 out of the 4 first four suggestions except data. I hate data and I get really angry when people try to use it get reads. Think me just trolling Math and nancy in Civilization Mafia.

I want to say why I don't work well with others is my lack of cooperativeness but every time I've been stubborn on reads I've been right so I'm not sure.


You are not alone. Certain other slots hate data. Others love it. A case made for Math or myself may need to be rephrased for you. Someone like me might want to end a day, while someone like you may need longer. Working together as town requires communicating these needs effectively and working as effectively as possible.

In post 1, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I want to say why I don't work well with others is my lack of cooperativeness but every time I've been stubborn on reads I've been right so I'm not sure.


This seems more of an issue of rythym and timing and charisma more than anything. Sometimes when you present a case, players aren't ready for it. No amount of yelling will do. You just see if they can agree or not and unfortunately move on if they say no and justify why so you can think about making the why less of a problem.
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:46 pm

In post 0, Titus wrote:If and when you die (because as a whole barring a bunch of conftown correct players die first), your death serves as a guidepost.

probably the biggest myth in this thread

people will never lynch someone because you wanted them lynched and youre now dead
people will lynch someone because they have a reason to think they are scum
And if they could not see the reasons while i was alive pointing them out, they certainly wont see them when Im dead

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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:17 pm

At the same time teaching mediocre scumhunters to fight to the death to get their reads lynched just makes towns shittier and shittier.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.

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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:09 pm

Mafia is ultimately a game of communication and collective problem-solving (at least from town perspective). It is hard to be simultaneously working with people while trying to decide if they're actually lying to you, but a "I'm not going to talk to you, I'm convinced you're scum and I just don't care what you or anyone has to say" attitude is just so unbelievably toxic and unpleasant to deal with (and I've seen this more than often enough unfortunately).
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:07 pm

Next article should be on bias and how it kills town cohesion.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:29 pm

the next article should be Titus' guide to VCA.
Feel free to approach me on discord: Alisae#3437
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:30 pm

In post 7, Alisae wrote:the next article should be Titus' guide to VCA.

Yes please
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Mon May 01, 2017 1:45 am

In post 3, Wisdom wrote:
In post 0, Titus wrote:If and when you die (because as a whole barring a bunch of conftown correct players die first), your death serves as a guidepost.

probably the biggest myth in this thread

people will never lynch someone because you wanted them lynched and youre now dead
people will lynch someone because they have a reason to think they are scum
And if they could not see the reasons while i was alive pointing them out, they certainly wont see them when Im dead


This is true if you fail to set town up correctly. If you're yelling like a mad person, then what you said is absolutely correct. Yet, if you properly do leave guideposts, I find that people do listen and it changes the tenor of the game, even if they don't actually give credit for that.

@Ircher, Bias doesn't kill cohesion. Pride does.

@Others, My VCA will be the next article I write and ASAP.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Mon May 01, 2017 5:44 am

I like this article a lot and I feel like one of the most undervalued qualities in fellow townies in differing views. Differing views should be celebrated and not treated as an obstacle and imo the sooner people learn to be able to collaborate with others who are seeing things a different way to them the sooner Town meta on MS will start being able to hold its own.
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Mon May 01, 2017 12:04 pm

Myth: If Titus promises a VCA and doesn't deliver, it's okay to brush it off and not push her for it. ;)
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Mon May 01, 2017 12:04 pm

Okay but this is seriously a great post.
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Mon May 01, 2017 1:58 pm

Article 1.5 - Distinguishing between rythym, patterns, and vote count analysis
Alternative Title: Why mastina is smart, but what she does is not VCA

Question: What is Vote Count Analysis?
Answer: Vote Count Analysis is taking the vote counts, flips, and roleclaims (if applicable) to determine a likely picture of the gamestate. Due to a sheer total lack of flips, VCA cannot be done day 1 as there is no hard data to draw any conclusion at all. Instead, that's an analysis of rythym, timing and social psychology. All of that is important but not VCA.

Question: How do we determine if something is VCA or looking at the group dynamic and making a conclusion?
Answer: Mostly in the types of questions asked.
If someone is starting from the presumption that a normal functioning town looks like X and drawing conclusions from there, that's looking at analyzing group dynamics.
If someone is stating that in a pattern that votes together, scum has infected, that's also looking at rythym and group dynamics.

If someone is looking at the votes and thinking what would town and scum do based on the vote patterns, then that's more of a VCA. It's impossible to know what scum are thinking based on vote counts alone without flips or knowledge of what the wagons are.

Question: Why is this distinction important? Both are applying social psychology to the game of mafia.
Answer: Rythym and motion are best applied to short term and determining who to lynch, who can be lynched and who should be lynched. Proper use of rythym and timing can make VCA better. It can also force town to lynch scum. It can help see whether the lynch you want is viable. Rythym and motion can be used to determine what plagues a town, who is town, and why certain things happen.

This guy always gets pushed but never voted is an excellent example of rythym and motion. It generally appears as a compromise lynch in a functioning town.
X is scummy, but I'll vote elsewhere is closer to VCA but usually rythym and timing. (Exception: If the player is always on the counterwagon to X who is flipped scum and has that excuse, then it's probably VCA).

Pattern matching, gut VCA, and frequent vote overlaps in mastina's guide to VCA are not VCA to me but pattern matching.
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Mon May 01, 2017 7:15 pm

Isn't it an arbitrary distinction?
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 1:30 am

In post 14, Accountant wrote:Isn't it an arbitrary distinction?

It? As in what counts as VCA?

No. Either you're working from hard data or you're not.

Both are valid skills. I'm just using the definition so that people have a clear definition of what's going on.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 1:31 am

Titus wrote:Myth 5: My vote should always be on my number 1 scumread at all times.
Answer 5: No. Your vote should always be on the vote that helps town win at all times. Sometimes that's voting your number one scumread. Sometimes that's voting to end a day that your townreads really need to end. Sometimes that's policy lynching that person that's annoying everyone in the town (sorry for all the times I may have). There's a reason the role PMs say your vote is your power and policy lynches are a thing. Voting people helps indicate to them that what they are doing is anti-town to you.


don't really wanna argue much but this one is categorically wrong as far as i'm concerned. on this site where deadlines are mega-long you kind of get away with this bad play but realistically:

you should always focus on your top scumread, but with flexibility for your top scumread to change based on new information. you have one vote, and brains are inherently bad at multi-tasking (sorry women, science wins). so don't multi-task your scumhunting when it's a hard enough job to find scum in the first place for most people.

anyway i think most of the guide is mostly right, so good job

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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 2:48 am

In post 16, rb wrote:
Titus wrote:Myth 5: My vote should always be on my number 1 scumread at all times.
Answer 5: No. Your vote should always be on the vote that helps town win at all times. Sometimes that's voting your number one scumread. Sometimes that's voting to end a day that your townreads really need to end. Sometimes that's policy lynching that person that's annoying everyone in the town (sorry for all the times I may have). There's a reason the role PMs say your vote is your power and policy lynches are a thing. Voting people helps indicate to them that what they are doing is anti-town to you.


don't really wanna argue much but this one is categorically wrong as far as i'm concerned. on this site where deadlines are mega-long you kind of get away with this bad play but realistically:

you should always focus on your top scumread, but with flexibility for your top scumread to change based on new information. you have one vote, and brains are inherently bad at multi-tasking (sorry women, science wins). so don't multi-task your scumhunting when it's a hard enough job to find scum in the first place for most people.

anyway i think most of the guide is mostly right, so good job


Understood. I think that my comments are not always 100% universally true. These posts are true methods of sorting sometimes though or to try to avoid a lynch. If a vote doesn't help lynch scum long term, it has no purpose.
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nancy
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 3:20 am

In post 16, rb wrote:you should always focus on your top scumread, but with flexibility for your top scumread to change based on new information. you have one vote, and brains are inherently bad at multi-tasking (sorry women, science wins). so don't multi-task your scumhunting when it's a hard enough job to find scum in the first place for most people.

Sorry but am pretty sure this is just a case of mr man not being willing to accept that women are just better at things ;)

Also, this is really just playstyle. I would almost never focus my top scumread in games. I almost always dealt better with scumreads by seeing how they reacted to things when I wasn't openly scumreading them and was leading them into things to get the behavior that I wanted from them. I basically would consistently ignore my top scumreads in order to push other slots either looking for partners, checking my blind spots or just testing how my scumreads will treat stuff. Don't think any good comes from mandating for people the one way they should play.
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 3:52 am

I really like articles 1 and 1.5. I hope to see more like this in the future. Great job, Titus!

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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 3:53 am

Will there be scum play advice?
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 3:54 am

What does multitasking skills have to do with women?
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 3:54 am

In post 20, Gamma Emerald wrote:Will there be scum play advice?

1) Post
2) Post
3) Post
4) Get townread on effort
5) Coast
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 4:05 am

In post 18, nancy wrote:
In post 16, rb wrote:you should always focus on your top scumread, but with flexibility for your top scumread to change based on new information. you have one vote, and brains are inherently bad at multi-tasking (sorry women, science wins). so don't multi-task your scumhunting when it's a hard enough job to find scum in the first place for most people.

Sorry but am pretty sure this is just a case of mr man not being willing to accept that women are just better at things ;)

Also, this is really just playstyle. I would almost never focus my top scumread in games. I almost always dealt better with scumreads by seeing how they reacted to things when I wasn't openly scumreading them and was leading them into things to get the behavior that I wanted from them. I basically would consistently ignore my top scumreads in order to push other slots either looking for partners, checking my blind spots or just testing how my scumreads will treat stuff. Don't think any good comes from mandating for people the one way they should play.


hehe :p
i bet i can reverse parker better than u :^)~~~~~

i think this is still focussing on your top scumread, just in a different way - you're looking for partners and you're trying to lead them into mistakes/testing their reactions

don't get me wrong, i'm big on people playing to their personal style. i mean more like, trying to pressure more than one slot at a time or trying to push a lynch on different slots than what you're voting. in my experience it's just not as effective and people aren't doing it for a good reason (i consider your reasons good, and it's one way of playing) - it's more that they get sidetracked, and that's what i'd say you want to avoid, and why the general rule of vote your top scumread and focus your top scumread is a good way for people to play

also yeah i'm pretty direct town and so for the most part i vote where i'm pressuring/intending to lynch. i change it if i change who i want to lynch. even in RVS i'm willing to push my wagon all the way to a lynch if i see no reason to change it or they respond badly

ALSOOOO: guides like this are always for newer players or less effective players. anyone who's decent or experienced won't really need to be told how to play and 10 experienced people will have 10 different opinions. i just like to discuss this stuff :^)

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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Tue May 02, 2017 4:08 am

rb your style of pushing your scumreads sounds like how TwoFace plays
I hope you never become as much of a bab as he is
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