Innocent-Child is a bad role?

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Innocent-Child is a bad role?

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 1:43 pm

Post by Toto »

It seems unique (mod announced) names are actually just slightly more powerful than ICs (see math below).

One easy way to see this is that an IC is equivalent to a mod announced uniquely named role that claims on D1. Mafia will not counter-claim that claim, so the role becomes essentially an IC.

So the extra power of the unique name comes from the fact they can decide when to claim, with the added risk that mafia may fake-counter claim later. However, math shows that the added power is not that significant.

Now, I suspect ICs are probably less fun to play than unique named roles given the fact that you don't get to make any decisions about when to claim. Unique names become much more powerful in the mid-late game, so you need to stay alive in order to maximize the power of your role. Also, ICs are a prime NK target so they probably won't survive after N1.

Based on this I suggest
never using ICs in a set-up in favor of uniquely named mod-announced roles
.

So for example, instead of a mod announcing the following: "player X is an IC"; mod would announce "There is a town member with a role named ABC in this game".


Spoiler: math
Example calculations of town win rates with number of VT/mafia and alternatively using named roles or ICs. Note how named roles only add a few percentage points in each case.

vt=6 mafia=2;; named(1)=31.60% ICs(1)=30.71%
vt=5 mafia=2;; named(2)=35.11% ICs(2)=33.33%
vt=8 mafia=2;; named(1)=36.86% ICs(1)=35.75%
vt=7 mafia=2;; named(2)=39.96% ICs(2)=37.22%
vt=7 mafia=3;; named(3)=26.26% ICs(3)=24.00%
vt=10 mafia=2;; named(1)=41.00% ICs(1)=39.85%
vt=10 mafia=3;; named(2)=27.09% ICs(2)=25.46%
vt=9 mafia=2;; named(2)=43.70% ICs(2)=40.78%
vt=9 mafia=3;; named(3)=29.62% ICs(3)=26.75%
vt=11 mafia=3;; named(1)=25.40% ICs(1)=24.79%
vt=12 mafia=2;; named(1)=44.37% ICs(1)=43.27%
vt=12 mafia=3;; named(2)=30.17% ICs(2)=28.48%
just because you get evil player role doesn't mean you are a evil person at HEART - KainTepes!!!
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 1:45 pm

Post by Kublai Khan »

I don't need math to tell me that "Innocent Child" is a bad role.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 1:48 pm

Post by Oversoul »

IC is such a depressing role to play.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 4:09 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

I fucking love IC. It's so fun. (Well the one game I played I was IC and was protected all game and scum chose to kill others which was cool with me, the longer I stay in the more influence I can put towards the game)

Honestly it was easy for me to be a bit arrogant. Hopefully I can dial that down.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 5:05 pm

Post by Toto »

In post 3, Ranmaru wrote:I fucking love IC. It's so fun. (Well the one game I played I was IC and was protected all game and scum chose to kill others which was cool with me, the longer I stay in the more influence I can put towards the game)

Honestly it was easy for me to be a bit arrogant. Hopefully I can dial that down.
All I'm saying is that if you had been a named townie instead of an IC it would be just slightly more beneficial to town, but also perhaps more interesting to you as you would need to decide when to claim. If you like being an IC you can claim D1 but that is non-optimal.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 5:24 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

I think that indeed can be interesting as well, in a different way. I agree with you though. In my case it was a smalltown game where we all drew lots for the roles, I got IC so everyone already knew and I knew that everyone was going to know so I was prepared for it. It may be different in a closed game and I do think the way you describe it would be better for a closed game as it allows the IC to play lowkey and others have to sniff them out and it makes it fun (mysterious) for all parties involved.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon May 15, 2017 7:47 pm

Post by McMenno »

I hate playing IC
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue May 16, 2017 5:43 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Is this autorevealed or selfrevealed IC
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue May 16, 2017 6:52 am

Post by Toto »

In post 7, Gamma Emerald wrote:Is this autorevealed or selfrevealed IC
This math is for D1 auto-revealed. Self-revealed is more powerful than a named townie.

vt < auto-IC < named-townie < self-IC
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed May 17, 2017 1:03 pm

Post by implosion »

One of my favorite games on this site was as an IC (self-revealing). I thought selfrevealing was slightly more standard except in c9++ but that may have shifted with site meta?

Your math also maybe (I don't actually know how you calculated it) ignores an important difference, which is that scum being lynched have the option to claim named townie and draw a counterclaim if they think they can't weasel out of it.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed May 17, 2017 3:12 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

Oh named townie isn't mod cleared?
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed May 17, 2017 4:25 pm

Post by Toto »

In post 9, implosion wrote:One of my favorite games on this site was as an IC (self-revealing). I thought selfrevealing was slightly more standard except in c9++ but that may have shifted with site meta?

Your math also maybe (I don't actually know how you calculated it) ignores an important difference, which is that scum being lynched have the option to claim named townie and draw a counterclaim if they think they can't weasel out of it.
Yep, math takes into account that scum always claims named townie when wagoned, and that they can actually counter claim named if beneficial to them.

But yeah, maybe always using self-revealing is the answer.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:23 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 10, Ranmaru wrote:Oh named townie isn't mod cleared?
It really depends on whether the setup is Open or Closed.

In an Open, it's not technically mod-cleared, but tends to work as mod-cleared in practice because no sane scum will counterclaim it, unless the setup's so close to lylo that town don't have time to just lynch both players.

In a Closed setup, a Named Townie claim has very little benefit to the person making it, because there's no proof that the player didn't just make the claim up. (Note that in a closed Theme game based around an established theme, a Named Townie claim can be slightly more useful as the theme means that a completely made-up claim would have a decent risk of being counterclaimed; however, it
still
typically doesn't help you due to the prevalence of mod-provided fakeclaims.)
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