Mastina's Scum/Wagon Average

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Mastina's Scum/Wagon Average

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:04 pm

Post by mastina »

So the other day I was browsing the wiki when I came across the concept of a Scum Wagon Average.
Me being me, though, I wanted to modify it, to develop a slightly more in-depth system. It's a work in progress, but right now, what I've come up with thusfar is tracking off of a points system:
  1. Not being on a town mislynch awards 1 point.
  2. Not being on a scum lynch removes 1 point.
  3. Being on a scum lynch awards 2 points.
  4. Being on a town mislynch removes 2 points.
  5. Being mislynched removes 2 points.
  6. Vig kills count as (mis)lynches (unless vigged by scum).
  7. The system tracks both the highest possible score given the game's lynches (that is, the best score you could have with the events as they were) and the highest possible score if perfect play was used (scum dead at every possible opportunity).
  8. This system is otherwise identical:
    1. Must be a pro-town role, or part of a Team Anti-Town Faction where at least one other Anti-Town Faction existed to successfully lynch.
    2. Serial killers don't count.
    3. No Mafia Mutations so distorted that lynching is essentially meaningless (RPS, Unknown Role, etc.) will count.
So for instance, my MSWA (Mastina Scum Wagon Average) for DEFCON would be 1/8/12:
On Day One, I wasn't on the scum lynch (-1); the best option for the day would be being on the scum lynch (2); the best theoretical score would be lynching scum (2).
On Day Two, I wasn't on the town mislynch (1); the best option for the day would be being off the town mislynch (1); the best theoretical score would be from having lynched scum that day (2).
On Day Three, I vigged town (-2); the best option for that vig would be vigging scum (2); the best score possible for that vig would be vigging scum (2).
On Day Three, I wasn't on the town mislynch (1); the best option for the day would be being off the town mislynch (1); the best theoretical score would be from having lynched scum that day (2).
On Day Four, I vigged scum (2); the best option for the day would be vigging scum (2); the best theoretical score would be from vigging scum (2).
Since I was vigged by scum, my score does not get negatively or positively impacted from that.
Leaving the totals as 1/8/12 for that game.
Or in other words, I had 6 theoretical chances to hit scum; I had 3 actual chances to hit scum and two chances to take the best not-scum option available; my overall actual score was a single taking-best-not-scum option.

In contrast, Mini 1913 (UPickInFreezer, where I was a head of Democracy) would have an MSWA score of -2/-2/2; we were vigged by town (equivalent to being mislynched); we couldn't stop from being vigged and thus the best score we could ever have gotten was -2; the theoretical best score we had possible would be 2 (if we weren't vigged and lynched scum instead). Or in other words, we had one theoretical chance to hit scum; we had less than zero ACTUAL chances to hit scum; our score thanks to this was less than zero.

Scores using this system would most likely be on the lower end (though it's hard to say; I only have myself as a guinea pig right now and my town stats are...somewhat lacking :shifty:), but more accurately reflect on both the theoretical and practical level of what could be given. I'm still figuring out the specifics of this though and figured I'd post this to MD to see what kind of feedback I could get on the system, improvements to make, etc.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Post by GuyInFreezer »

obligatory "I don't like putting scores on individual players for a team game like mafia because doing that creates something to drama over and the scores still probably don't accurately portray the players' potential"
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WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:25 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1, GuyInFreezer wrote:obligatory "I don't like putting scores on individual players for a team game like mafia because doing that creates something to drama over and the scores still probably don't accurately portray the players' potential"
It'd be just a stat for the player themselves: self-inflicted as it were.

Using my system across all games, my MSWA is at -5/14/36.
That being, with 36 theoretically possible chances to lynch scum and 14 actual chances, I've hit scum so infrequently that I've got a negative score. Not exactly something which I'd want someone else to label me by. But something which--since I'm the one who calculated it in the first place--I am okay with admitting.

(For the curious, I have a page detailing all the stats across all the games which can help get a better picture of what the stats can be.)
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:32 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

This seems really complicated.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Post by Firebringer »

It also seems like a waste of time.
What does knowing any of this actually improve any player?
Like the practical use of this?

Not just information for sake of info.
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"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:56 am

Post by Cephrir »

pls dont encourage vanity wagons
"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:45 am

Post by Leonshade »

This doesn't look like an accurate measurement of anything to me. The wagon you're on at the end of the day doesn't necessarily reflect your own reads.

Pushing for a scum lynch all day, but compromising on a town lynch at deadline reduces the same number of points as the townies who actually pushed for the mislynch.
Having scum be quicklynched before you can vote reduces your points, while the same happening to town awards you points.

And when you get to how helpful your behavior can be to actually solving a game, I think the difference between compromising on a town mislynch over staying stubborn and delaying the end of the day is at best non-existent, and in most cases the former is better. Yet in this system, the former behavior is punished and the latter rewarded.
"I still cant believe Leonshade just talked his way out of getting lynched by posting Lion King gifs"
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:27 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 4, Firebringer wrote:It also seems like a waste of time. What does knowing any of this actually improve any player? Like the practical use of this? Not just information for sake of info.
In post 6, Leonshade wrote:This doesn't look like an accurate measurement of anything to me.
Accuracy's not really the point; I envisioned it as a for fun "sure, why not track this" thing. Which is why, yes, it's a waste of time--a waste of time for fun. If I implied this was meant to be used as a metric to actually improve as a player, this was a mistake on my end as no such implication was intended.
In post 5, Cephrir wrote:pls dont encourage vanity wagons
It doesn't? This is for the lynch wagon. You don't get points for voting scum on days that weren't scum lynches.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:57 pm

Post by Firebringer »

i don't see how this is fun.
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"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:31 am

Post by Raskolnikov »

Before I saw #5 I was expecting this to turn into a VCA thing/scumhunting tool and to get mega-triggered :lol:
deranged and incoherent
?
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:34 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 4, Firebringer wrote:It also seems like a waste of time.
What does knowing any of this actually improve any player?
Like the practical use of this?

Not just information for sake of info.
Clearly you're not familiar with Mastin - that is his specialty.

As for this particular idea, you didn't justify any of the point values, so I can't critique it. Please update your post with justifications for all these things you suggest.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA41ggsdeXE
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 10, Junpei wrote:Clearly you're not familiar with Mastin - that is [HER] specialty.
It kinda is.
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