mafia pt released on endgame

[vonflare]

PTs should always be made public after the game.

I think it should be a site rule and non-optional.

[kuribo]

if ever i'm in a game with a scumbuddy that didnt want the PT released, and i later find myself in a different game with them, I will simply lie about what was in the PT to help push their wagon

it'll just be their word against mine, and my word is generally louder

[Gamma Emerald]

if ever i'm in a game with a scumbuddy that didnt want the PT released, and i later find myself in a different game with them, I will simply lie about what was in the PT to help push their wagon

it'll just be their word against mine, and my word is generally louder

genius

[petroleumjelly]

Relevant discussion was had recently

Thank you for posting this.

I notice everybody here keeps using the abbreviation "PT" instead of calling it what it is: a

private

topic. Perhaps this helps you disassociate from it. When I post in a

private

topic, I expect

privacy

unless everybody involved agrees to have it open to everybody. Plain and simple.

The reasons for wanting privacy do not need to be discussed, explained, or justified. That's how privacy works. If the plan is to release them without consent, then you should change the terminology. I do not have to be "hiding" something in my house to want

privacy

in my house.

Forum mafia is ultimately a replication of face-to-face mafia. If, in face-to-face mafia, the mafia had the opportunity to commune secretly together at night and discuss the game and their thoughts with each other unknown to the town, there would certainly be no expectation that this discussion would be 'released' to the Town (much less the public) after the game is over. After the game, the mafia may well openly decide to discuss what occurred or explain some of their actions -- and that already tends to happen when forum games end, especially if players want to ask the mafia particular questions (like, "why did you kill me!?"). If that real-life discussion between the mafia was (for some reason) taped, then I have to think you would agree that those taped discussions shouldn't be released unless everybody involved in those discussions agreed they were comfortable with it.

Further, some background is helpful. Private Topics used to not even come from the moderator -- it was a thing scum did naturally when they learned they were part of a scum group. We would log in to a secure, third-party website to discuss the game and our thoughts. If anybody else got to read it, it was because we agreed for it to be released. The fact that moderators increasingly almost demand that scum post in a supplied Private Topic should not change the privacy involved in the situation; it simply allows the moderator to be able to answer questions and take night actions (and, I think, somewhat improperly sating their curiosity by peeking in on how the mafia is playing the game).

Keep Private Topics private unless those involved agree otherwise. Else, call them something else.

[kuribo]

Except they're part of a game, and games are public record

[Alchemist21]

I take private to mean that other players can't see the thread and know what's going on while the game's ongoing (obviously important because the Mafia need to stay hidden). Dead threads are PT's too; do they have the same expectation of privacy?

Your argument is based in semantics and you're saying to change the terminology but would your opinion on the matter really be different if they were called hidden topics instead of private topics? If the name did change, would it make all the other arguments for wanting to keep PT's from getting released or having redactions made magically disappear?

[Alchemist21]

Also, (and this question is for anyone to answer) what about people who get replaced for any reason? Should getting replaced waive your right to keep the PT or parts of it from getting released?

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, (and this question is for anyone to answer) what about people who get replaced for any reason? Should getting replaced waive your right to keep the PT or parts of it from getting released?

Probably
And if you disappear your right should definitely be waived

[petroleumjelly]

My argument is not based on semantics.

Private Topics started as private conversations between partners that were never released to Towns unless the Mafia agreed to post it. That was how the term "private topic" started to begin.

Over the years, moderators began giving scum private topics to post in. The expectation should remain that those discussions would remain private. The difference is that the moderator has access and therefore can answer questions, receive night actions, and as you point out, give replacements access. It should be expected that anybody in a mafia group would have access to the private topic, because the private topic

is

for the players who are in the group, regardless of when they were in the game.

The point is, they

are

called private topics for a reason. Which people seem to be ignoring. Words having meaning, and the words here are not only straightforward, but have a historical basis on the site.

[Gamma Emerald]

That's several years ago. The new expectation is for them to be released. Do you think we should just regress back to that style because that's "the way it was"? Do you know who also tried to cling to "the way it was"? The southern states after the end of the American Civil War.

[Mulch]

I would like to be informed of my flaws so I could better myself
Just don't be a dick about it

And you are willing to think that your belief about this is so strong that you would impose your belief against everybody else on the site who may think differntly (and may think differently in practice, though most in theory would say here they are courageous)?

[Alchemist21]

My argument is not based on semantics.

...

The point is, they

are

called private topics for a reason. Which people seem to be ignoring. Words having meaning, and the words here are not only straightforward, but have a historical basis on the site.

I'm not sure you know what semantics means, but ok.

Did they start getting called Private topics because those players wanted them to stay private forever, or did they just want privacy for the duration of the game?

You also didn't answer whether calling it something else would actually change your opinion on them getting released. Some sites don't have their own PT's so they use quicktopics. That's exactly what they call them too and abbreviate them as QT's, but they function the same way as a PT. So for the sake of argument let's imagine QT's didn't have the ability to let users edit/delete their own posts. Would a moderator be more correct to release a QT without question than releasing a PT?

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean if you can't take criticism you probably don't have a thick enough skin to be playing mafia

[Mulch]

I mean if you can't take criticism you probably don't have a thick enough skin to be playing mafia

1) This is wrong
2) I disagree
3) This is not objective and therefore should not be something that we use to decide a policy for EVERYONE

[petroleumjelly]

My argument is not based on semantics.

...

The point is, they

are

called private topics for a reason. Which people seem to be ignoring. Words having meaning, and the words here are not only straightforward, but have a historical basis on the site.

I'm not sure you know what semantics means, but ok.

Did they start getting called Private topics because those players wanted them to stay private forever, or did they just want privacy for the duration of the game?

You also didn't answer whether calling it something else would actually change your opinion on them getting released. Some sites don't have their own PT's so they use quicktopics. That's exactly what they call them too and abbreviate them as QT's, but they function the same way as a PT. So for the sake of argument let's imagine QT's didn't have the ability to let users edit/delete their own posts. Would a moderator be more correct to release a QT without question than releasing a PT?

You are using "semantics" as if my argument is petty and splitting-hairs, and you are intentionally putting a negative spin on it. And notably, you keep cutting out the portion of private topics came about and

why

they are called private topics to begin with.

Again, private topics were literally private conversations between the mafia that was never released unless the mafia wanted to release it. I used to play in games where conversations occurred over instant messaging and weren't contained in a topic at all -- towns aren't entitled to see those conversations either. Private topics were born out of growing necessity for scum groups to be able to communicate with each other in a manner that was not fractured.

~

Privacy is an important concept. It seems this cannot be stressed enough.

If you tell me a room is

private

, that gives an expectation of privacy. Perhaps the fact that I am an attorney and know the importance of the Constitutional right to privacy (against unreasonable searches, seizures, etc.) is clouding my judgment, but privacy is something that ought to protected. Telling me a conversation I have is private and then turning around and publishing it is not something that should be taken lightly. Being

curious

about what I (or others) say in private is not enough reason to violate privacy. And yet that is ultimately the 'push' that is being made in this thread.

If it were

clear

that conversations between partners were going to be released at the start of a game (for example, calling them a QuickTopic to facilitate night discussions), then yes, it could be acceptable to release such conversations after the game. And the

reason

that could be acceptable is because by changing the name, you are changing the expectations. Ultimately, privacy is a concept that revolves around the

expectation

of privacy.

Here, the

expectation

of privacy is bolstered not only by calling them

private

topics, but also because of the history behind them where such conversations were indeed private.

[Also, I will note that your QuickTopic argument cuts against you somewhat. The site where most Private Topics were created were made at a website which is

called

QuickTopic. Nevertheless, players referred to those conversations as Private Topics. Again, this reflects the private nature of those conversations.]

[Alchemist21]

Well your argument does seem to be splitting hairs imo. I'm sympathetic to some of the other arguments for not releasing them but this one is really weak. I keep cutting out historical context because we're talking about modern PT's, plus having not been there to see the history I can't really make an argument for or against it, but I have a feeling they were called private because it was where they could communicate in secret during the game, not because they stayed secret afterwards. Also I'd wager the vast majority of players weren't around for it either so I don't see how their expectations of privacy would be influenced by a historical context they're completely unaware of.

Sure privacy is important in a mafia game. You don't want Town to see what you're talking about and you end up losing the game. But why does that privacy extend beyond the game? You're given privacy so your attempt to further your wincon isn't hindered, but once the game is over why is that privacy still needed? I could see the argument of protecting your meta for future games, but nothing's stopping your old teammates from using what they saw and remember against you the next time around.

Your experience as an attorney probably is factoring in here. Making arguments about privacy on the forum because of how privacy gets interpreted by the law seems to me a lot like the argument that people should be allowed to say anything on the site because it's freedom of speech. This is a privately owned site with its own rules and customs, and when the site uses certain terms its not using legal definitions.

As far as the expectations of getting them released at the start of the game, I don't think I've personally seen a mod who was 100% going to release a PT with no redactions without making that clear in the first post of the PT. The expectation is there from the start (unless you're talking about even before people get their role PM).

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think newbie PTs should be released as standard practice. I find old scum PTs in particular profoundly helpful in figuring out how to play the game better. Even the dead threads are useful, however, because people can just say what they think about a play without having to frame it inside whatever's going on in the game. They're good tools to help newcomers learn.

I'm too new to the site to have an opinion about the rest.

/.02

[kuribo]

If your scum game is so Fucking fragile that a singl PT will ruin it, you need to reevaluate how you play scum.

[petroleumjelly]

If you are willing to concede that players should be able to redact Private Topics prior to it being released, then you necessarily have to accept that people have the option to completely delete their posts in such a topic. So really, if (for example), an mafia group does not wish it's privacy to be disturbed, it can do so by deleting everything before it is released. Which is the same as a mafia group not wishing it to be released, except you are forcing them to take further affirmative steps to protect their privacy.

Conversely, not releasing a Private Topic does not do a substantial amount of 'harm.' Players are always free to ask questions after the game which can be answered by scum, even if they choose not to release the Private Topic.

I personally find Mafia Private Topics in particular very interesting to read -- it often sheds light on odd interactions and fills in gaps for why somebody played the way they did. It lets you gauge who the scum thought was easy to lynch, or who they thought was a power role (right or wrong), and so forth. And yet while I very much enjoy when scum teams agree to release their Private Topics, I also respect when a scum group declines to have their Private Topic released -- and other players should, too. Your curiosity in seeing it does not outweigh the right to privacy that is promised and expected from the outset of the game.

If your scum game is so Fucking fragile that a singl PT will ruin it, you need to reevaluate how you play scum.

This is the exact type of worst argument possible.

Protecting privacy is not about whether releasing a private topic will "ruin" somebody's scum game. The point is protecting the expectation of privacy. It's the

privacy

that is being respected, not necessarily the content contained within. If somebody expects a conversation to be private and acts accordingly, the content of what occurred in that conversation is irrelevant. As before, I do not have to be "hiding something" to not wish somebody to rifle through my personal effects, or a diary, or my house, etc.

[vonflare]

Guys, you aren't going to change jelly's stance by arguing with him. His arguments are self-contradictory but he still stands by them. This indicates that he refuses to change his stance because he doesn't want to admit he was wrong.

It's pointless to persue this further.

[Gamma Emerald]

Not like he's even playing

[kuribo]

Not like he's even playing

that's offset by the fact that i don't play either

[kuribo]

The point is protecting the expectation of privacy

why should there be an expectation of privacy in a public game?

[zMuffinMan]

who goes around telling people that scum topics are "private" and will remain private? maybe in the stone age of mafia, there was an expectation that mafia topics were released only under certain circumstances, but times change

dead topics also fall under the umbrella of "private topics" fwiw (where private simply means "not currently public"), so this whole "omg it's private so i expect it to remain private" line of reasoning is pretty fucking turd

Conversely, not releasing a Private Topic does not do a substantial amount of 'harm.' Players are always free to ask questions after the game which can be answered by scum, even if they choose not to release the Private Topic.

you're right, it doesn't directly harm anyone if a PT isn't released, in the same way it wouldn't directly harm someone to not go to school and have an education

you're also correct that i can ask someone a question about something that may have happened over 1-2 months ago and get a response, but having a player possibly incorrectly remember things or tell a version of the events that may be incomplete is entirely different from being able to view a player's thoughts in real time as the events are happening. going with the previous analogy, "if you have questions about a subject, you don't have to go to school to learn about it, you can just ask someone who knows"

if you're playing mafia and not striving for continuous improvement, then, imo, you're doing it wrong - and part of continuous improvement involves being able to assess everything that happened in a game and figure out where you were on the right track and where you were way off. as town, part of that involves knowing whether inferences you were making with regards to scum play were correct and the best way to see that is to have access to scum's thoughts

it's part of the reason why whenever i played scum i tried to be as open about my thought processes with regards to my plans and people's play as possible - the expectation was that if anyone ever wanted to read how i was thinking about the game and where they may have gone right or wrong in their analysis of my play, they'd be able to get that information post-game (without me having to recall what was happening where if they happened to ask me about it)

[Zachrulez]

The point is protecting the expectation of privacy

why should there be an expectation of privacy in a public game?

I'm not sure where it comes from. Referring to them as private topics instead of night talk or scum chat or something that doesn't carry the expectation of privacy probably doesn't help. The only game relevant reason to conceal the discussion is only really applicable during the game. Later reasons such as posting something you don't want a player to see is usually due to your own personal choice of not wanting to choose your words better. If you can talk about how to expliot a townie without going out of your way to offend them you are usually fine.