[Meta] Newbie Experience (Formerly IC replace rate thread)

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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:21 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 194, Toomai wrote:Here's the thing with a "10th player" IC: they are always going to be inherently biased in some way.
  • If they're as uninformed as a spectator, they're more likely to be game-solving and thus pro-town.
  • If they know who PRs are, they're probably going to be subconsciously biased towards advice for those roles.
  • If they know who the scum are, they're more likely to accidentally have advice for their exact situation that players can link.
  • If they're as informed as the mod, might as well have the mod do the job, and it's generally considered that's not good.
If there's a desire to decouple IC advice from in-game players, I would say do it like this instead:
  • Have a publicly-viewable document full of IC advice. Being an IC means you have the rights to edit this document.
  • The mod, or a dedicated IC "hydra" account, reads the game and pastes/quotes/links to the IC document, in the game thread or the scum PT, at appropriate times.
  • You could assign ICs to watch games, or have them free-float around at will.
Obviously this won't be as in-tune to the game as a player IC, and there's always going to be arguments over what to put in the repository.
wow it's almost like if we update the wiki 100% to the current year then it would be pretty easy to implement this
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:20 am

Post by profii »

In post 197, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 196, profii wrote:The IC participant would be a non-player and blind to who is Scum/PR/et al
Agree
The Non-player-IC can always give advice in the scum PT to keep it private
Disagree
I'm going to make some assumptions over disagree so excuse me if I'm going in a random direction
my assumption is you think having an IC help in private would be an advantage - my expectation would be that the IC would be more along the lines of

'your role of scum is to eliminate the PRs quickly as they are your biggest threats unless you think another player is going to drive a lynch your way- usually this might be done by someone who seems scummy as they trick you into thinking they are mislynchable'

i would expect the IC to say 'oh yeah guys, Lickety is right on to you and he's a pretty good player, get rid of him ASAP'
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:17 pm

Post by Psyche »

need to build a newbie system that doesn't rely on ICs or mods being especially good at their jobs
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:43 pm

Post by Toomai »

In post 196, profii wrote:The IC participant would be a non-player and blind to who is Scum/PR/et al

The role of the IC is to be familiar with the IC document and essentially copy+paste and then explain it


The Non-player-IC can always give advice in the scum PT to keep it private
I do agree there would have to be a way for the theoretical observer-IC to give scum advice that might be telling if town were to see it. But how would one post in the scum PT without knowing who the scum are? I guess telling the mod what to post would be one option but it's clunky.
In post 200, Mathdino wrote:wow it's almost like if we update the wiki 100% to the current year then it would be pretty easy to implement this
While that probably should be done anyway, the theoretical IC document probably shouldn't be publicly-editable. Viewable is fine. Not sure if wiki architechture could support that (you'd have to give ICs "edit protected pages", which isn't specific).
In post 202, Psyche wrote:need to build a newbie system that doesn't rely on ICs or mods being especially good at their jobs
That would be ideal but it's probably impossible. You could update the wiki and just say "all newbies, if you have a question, look at the wiki" but no one will be very happy about that. Any more than that and you have to insert someone who 1. knows what they're doing and 2. needs to be trusted they know what they're doing.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:00 am

Post by Srceenplay »

In post 178, mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 176, Zachrulez wrote:
In post 175, mhsmith0 wrote:
But seriously, playing like absolute garbage, lurking, being toxic, and so on and so forth is simply not stuff that is acceptable for an IC, or at least shouldn't be. Currently it is, or at least de facto is.
I wasn't arguing that any of this was acceptable. I was arguing that actually being a good IC is not some kind of glowing bright holy grail that a lot of people on the site seem to think it is. The IC being put on that pedestal is arguably what stops a lot of people from signing up to be one.
I think there should be resources and training and support so that people who aren’t currently at the level where they’d be good at icing but are interested can become good ICs. I think that increasing the number and quality of ICs is totally doable given will and motivation by those in charge. It’s just that this doesn’t currently exist.

And I guess I should clarify that I don’t want to just dump on management, because the truth is, doing all of this is HARD (and to a fair degree outside the norms of what we’d normally expect from management generally). But if you really want to boost the usefulness and effectiveness of newbie queue, it’s what needs to be done.

PS One thing which I really do think would be helpful all around would be for EVERY new applicant to the IC role to be given a newbie game where they're just an observer, and they talk through what's happening in the game, provide advice and feedback to people in dead thread, etc. Really focus just on the teaching aspect, and get experience at that without having to try and juggle teaching and pursuing a wincon. That'll help people get their feet wet in terms of teaching, and it'll also (bluntly) help whittle out the people who aren't going to be good at or interested in that aspect of the role.
Maybe before playing as an IC you should sit in a review process of another ic. The reviewers might be able to guide and give a learning experience to new ICs
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:16 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 201, profii wrote:
In post 197, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 196, profii wrote:The IC participant would be a non-player and blind to who is Scum/PR/et al
Agree
The Non-player-IC can always give advice in the scum PT to keep it private
Disagree
I'm going to make some assumptions over disagree so excuse me if I'm going in a random direction
my assumption is you think having an IC help in private would be an advantage - my expectation would be that the IC would be more along the lines of

'your role of scum is to eliminate the PRs quickly as they are your biggest threats unless you think another player is going to drive a lynch your way- usually this might be done by someone who seems scummy as they trick you into thinking they are mislynchable'

i would expect the IC to say 'oh yeah guys, Lickety is right on to you and he's a pretty good player, get rid of him ASAP'
I view playing as Scum highly subjective. That's more the kind of thing that I am talking about... I mean, yes, IC might be able to give some general pointers but even saying "NK PRs" can be a subjective thing.
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