[Meta] Newbie Experience (Formerly IC replace rate thread)

[PenguinPower]

One thing I have noticed is that newbie games appear to require a lot more brain power than other games. There's definitely a culture shock shifting from the road to other games and that might contribute to retention rate or lack thereof (for both newbies and ICs, really). I dunno if that's helpful, but ... you never know?

I still maintain my theory that running the same setup--even a semiopen one--with no alternatives may contribute to this because literally every single queue outside the newbie queue is going to have different game setups. Even the queues "closest" to newbies. (Opens for setup, Micros for size, Normals for type.)

They have variety of type and content within which newbies don't get exposure to.

Is that not why there is a limit to the amount of times one can be a "newbie" in the newbie queue? It allows them to get used to site meta, and then it encourages them to branch out after two games (if not before) to experience different types of games. It also allows them to come back and play that setup whenever they want to after gaining experience with other types of games and players.

[fferyllt]

There's that, and it also insures that the majority of game slots are reserved for true newbies (1st or 2nd game) at least initially, and usually throughout the game.

Even so, some games evolve into "Battle of the Crotchety old ICs" by the end of day 1.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw I kinda think it'd be ok to let newbies play THREE games in newbie queue before needing to be se status. Just my $0.02 tho.

[mastina]

Is that not why there is a limit to the amount of times one can be a "newbie" in the newbie queue? It allows them to get used to site meta, and then it encourages them to branch out after two games (if not before) to experience different types of games. It also allows them to come back and play that setup whenever they want to after gaining experience with other types of games and players.

I don't have the stats to back it but I believe that the period where newbies leave to experience other queues is where we have most of the ones who don't immediately flake, flake out. I just think that they're not prepared to leave yet our rules force them to leave so they do--and then leave the site soon after.

Something which could be worth pursuing: if we have a newbie shortage, we could loosen our definition of newbie, and then when we have an overabundance of newbies in the queue, tighten it up again. (Other queues have variable systems like this, and the newbie queue also does with the 2 SE vs. 3 SE distribution too.) If there were also multiple setups to go along with this, that could encourage newbies to get a wider array of experience, so that the shock isn't too large...yet also still have them leave the queue

reasonably

early so they're not a perpetual newbie.

[fferyllt]

Personally, I don't think anything would be harmed by either perpetually or on a queue-optimization basis switching over to a 3-game newbie rule.

I also like the idea of more varied setups, though I think it would complicate a lot of things about the queue that are pretty simple and streamlined right now.

[mastina]

Fwiw I kinda think it'd be ok to let newbies play THREE games in newbie queue before needing to be se status. Just my $0.02 tho.

^Basically something like this but on maybe a larger scale.

I think that, optimally, we want a system where newbies can spend enough time in the newbie queue to become acclimated to our site, and are comfortable, but also don't become

dependent

on newbie-style games such that the culture shock is so extreme when leaving that they can't actually cope.

To some extent, players (more experienced SEs and ICs) can help with this but I also feel the system itself can assist in efforts there.

[Mulch]

Can I just point out as someone who was a newbie 3 months ago that it was hella intimidating to see the other queues, I had zero idea what the fuck was going on lol

[fferyllt]

Can I just point out as someone who was a newbie 3 months ago that it was hella intimidating to see the other queues, I had zero idea what the fuck was going on lol

What were the intimidating things about the other queues?

(I had the opposite experience. I enjoyed the hell out of my first couple games after finishing one newbie game.)

[PenguinPower]

Something which could be worth pursuing: if we have a newbie shortage, we could loosen our definition of newbie, and then when we have an overabundance of newbies in the queue, tighten it up again.

I fully support this.

As far as multiple setups - possibly support. I actually think getting feedback from the newbies while they are newbies (with regard to setup, structure, changes, etc. would be beneficial - and it's one reason I'm glad SD decided to pop into this conversation).

[PenguinPower]

Can I just point out as someone who was a newbie 3 months ago that it was hella intimidating to see the other queues, I had zero idea what the fuck was going on lol

And, this is why I think we need a newbie feedback mechanism.

[fferyllt]

There used to be a feedback mechanism. Needs to start up again.

[mastina]

There used to be a feedback mechanism. Needs to start up again.

Would it be possible to link to that and see how easy it'd be to update/improve/re-implement? I don't actually remember this mechanism but I'm interested in it.

[fferyllt]

It was nothing fancy, just a Quicktopic that Singer had in her signature.

https://quicktopic.com/47/H/SGy6LuW33BN

I think it fell into disuse because we don't use quicktopic now that private threads are a thing.

A survey like what zor used to do for large theme games might be a better approach. Mods could post a link in postgame, or someone could PM a link to players in completed games every couple weeks or once a month or something like that.

[Sunlit Diamond]

As far as multiple setups - possibly support. I actually think getting feedback from the newbies while they are newbies (with regard to setup, structure, changes, etc. would be beneficial - and it's one reason I'm glad SD decided to pop into this conversation).

I generally wander into the nuts and bolts section of any community I join. I dunno why. Glad to be welcome, glad I can help.

I actually really like the newbie setup and plan on coming back as an SE and eventually IC until the listmod kicks me out or God dies of old age.

Newbie retention:

Going off the meta in my homesite alone I'd say MS gets a decent number of newbies who are not at all prepared for how intent people get in their play here. That type would disappear no matter how the newbie games are set up.

I think having a good IC (and SEs) does have an impact on retention rate. If I hadn't had a positive experience in my first game I am not sure I would have survived the normal I joined and dropped from, let alone felt comfortable trying another. I can offer more insight on this once 1807 ends.

I love that ICs give reviews after. I wonder if there is any correlation, however, between newbies getting "negative" IC feedback and those same newbies fading off the site? Not saying not to criticize bad play, just wondering how that might impact things and if there's a way to mitigate it if it does.


IC replace-out rate:

It would be interesting to track: 1) How many are first/second time ICs. 2) How many concurrent games they were playing (or modding) on mains/alts/hydras when they replaced out. 3) What the state of the game they replaced out of was.

A trend in #1 would indicate new ICs need more support. A trend in #2 might indicate a need for a 'suggested number of active games' for ICs. Suggested, not required, because one more hard restriction on an already limited pool is not going to help anyone. #3 might reveal global game problems that could potentially be solved with adjustments to rules or setup.


General set up commentary:

Sticking to C9 does streamline the queue and minimizes the number of questions that ICs/SEs may have about setup. This theoretically makes it easier for them to lend their knowledge to the game. That said, if someone's been SE/ICing for months/years, I could see it getting dull for them.

I could see upping the allowed number of newbie-slot games to three instead of two, or having a traffic-triggered flexible definition of what "newbie" means, as was mentioned earlier in the thread.


Random other thoughts:

The queue was not a big deal for me. I signed up and ~24 hours later I was in a game, both times. Everything is nicely cross referenced and the 1st page posts are kept up to date...very easy to follow.

I didn't know what a hydra was until I found this forum. It seems like an excellent way to learn and if it were more readily apparent to newbies, perhaps they'd go for it more frequently?



...I didn't actually intend on writing a novel. Whoops.

[Dunnstral]

Going off the meta in my homesite alone I'd say MS gets a decent number of newbies who are not at all prepared for how intent people get in their play here.

What do you mean? Like, how serious non-newbies get about the game?

[Cabd]

We now have a listmod. (Congrats Penguin!)

Let's start drilling down some constructive feedback/ideas!

[Creature]

Starting with ICs being reviewed.

[fferyllt]

I'm interested in helping work on newbie feedback mechanisms, and will be continuing my data collection/analysis of 2017 games as they run to completion. Will be glad to help out on most anything though.

[Cabd]

1. IC reviews
~As a IC review group?
~By the moderator of the game?
~By the skittle directly?

2. Newbie feedback
~By google forms?
~Something baked into the game?
~Just publicly in the thread post-game?

[fferyllt]

2. Newbie feedback
~By google forms?
Yes
~Something baked into the game?
Yes
~Just publicly in the thread post-game?
This is good, but it's not enough. We should be digging into the question of whether the current queue/format/setup gives Newbies the tools (and more importantly the confidence) to swim in the deeper pools at MS after a couple games.

[fferyllt]

In terms of making queue transitions easier/more painless I have some thoughts (as a game mod) about designing and running some micro/mini games that are meant to be explicitly newbie-friendly though open to anyone who's ok with abiding by the ruleset I'd want to enforce.

I don't really have any details worth sharing about it atm, but I get the impression there might be a need/demand for that kind of game occasionally.

[mastina]

A survey like what zor used to do for large theme games might be a better approach. Mods could post a link in postgame, or someone could PM a link to players in completed games every couple weeks or once a month or something like that.

If it's not too much work to the listmod, I had in mind the listmod posting the survey as soon as the game is finished.

Waiting until the game has been archived is waiting too long in my opinion since even if you archive liberally, newbies aren't likely to read the game after the first 48 hours or so of postgame.

[mhsmith0]

You could probably also have a generic google survey link, and game # is just one of the things you enter. Then the game hosts can just post the link as part of the game-ending stuff.

[fferyllt]

A survey like what zor used to do for large theme games might be a better approach. Mods could post a link in postgame, or someone could PM a link to players in completed games every couple weeks or once a month or something like that.

If it's not too much work to the listmod, I had in mind the listmod posting the survey as soon as the game is finished.

Waiting until the game has been archived is waiting too long in my opinion since even if you archive liberally, newbies aren't likely to read the game after the first 48 hours or so of postgame.

I think it's a multi-pronged data gathering approach that's needed

- find out how the game went and what could be improved (should be done quickly). This could be done posting a link in the game thread at postgame, or sending out a PM to all newbie participants, including ones who replaced out. The data we'd miss without directly reaching out to players who got partway through the game and threw in the towel is probably some of the data we most want, though.

- check back in after a month or so and find out how the transition to playing non-newbie games has gone

[PenguinPower]

I swear, some of you are reading my mind.