[Meta] Newbie Experience (Formerly IC replace rate thread)

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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:58 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 174, Zachrulez wrote:You make being an IC sound really complicated. An IC is really just more experienced than the other players in a newbie game on this site. Your main job is to teach people how to play on this site. For the most part all that requires is for you to play the game and then give post game tips after it's over. Occasionally you might find the odd player or two who have no idea what they're doing and you might need to prod/guide them into what to do. But really it's not that complicated. The experience is going to teach the players way more than the IC ever actually will. People tend to overvalue the role of the IC in general in the learning process.
The official rules of conduct for being an IC demand substantially more than this.
Inexperience Challenged is a faux-politically correct term on mafiascum.net for experienced players ("IC"s) who sign up for Newbie Games to represent the site and its meta. This is considered a voluntary burden and taken very seriously by the List Mod.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _a_good_IC

Some key excepts
Rude, unhelpful, and/or inattentive ICs do not provide a good experience for players, new or old. Attacking someone is part of the game, but that should be tempered with civility. Don't treat the new people with kid gloves, but don't be the reason they never come back to the site either.
As an IC you are at least partially responsible for the flow of the game, because very often the other players in the game will not understand why more discussion is a good thing. You want to lead by example. Secondly, you want to give the newbies a good first experience. GAMES WHERE NO ONE IS POSTING ARE NOT FUN. Give them a fun game. Give yourself a fun game. Don't lurk.
The easiest way for newbies to learn is to watch good players playing at their best. Do not attempt to water down your game, or play any differently in terms of your objectives as you would in any other game. Make sure you're playing to win, and make sure you attack just as hard as you would in any other game. Do not attempt to coddle the newbies by playing down to their level, as that will not help them advance as players, and that's pretty much the point of the game.
While you might be playing with some players who know the ropes, most likely you'll be playing with people that do not necessarily know very much about mafia. This means that it is your responsibility to attempt to instruct them! That is why you're there, after all.
By the same token, don't be a mystery. While in some situations is best to hold back reasons for various in game purposes, newbie games are probably not the place for such tactics. Because they are just getting their first taste of mafia, your insights and reasoning are valuable to them. Seeing the way that experienced players think about the game will help them develop their own scum hunting skills later on down the road.
Your primary role as an IC is to teach good gameplay.
(this was in the context of what you're not supposed to do as a scum IC)
Realize that there are dozens of different individual rules and theories that could crop up in any given game of Mafia. I think it is an unrealistic expectation for an IC to try to cover every situation. Remember that for a Newbie game we just want to provide an example of how a game functions with the basic mechanics explained. You can't possibly cover it all, so don't try to do so. On the flip side, make sure that whatever theory does get covered is fully explained and understood by all.
(this is basically the only one that argues for relatively low standards for IC's, and pretty much everything else fairly clearly suggests that IC's have substantial responsibility for the flow of a game, for encouraging the growth of the players in the game, etc)


But seriously, playing like absolute garbage, lurking, being toxic, and so on and so forth is simply not stuff that is acceptable for an IC, or at least shouldn't be. Currently it is, or at least de facto is.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:25 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 175, mhsmith0 wrote:
But seriously, playing like absolute garbage, lurking, being toxic, and so on and so forth is simply not stuff that is acceptable for an IC, or at least shouldn't be. Currently it is, or at least de facto is.
I wasn't arguing that any of this was acceptable. I was arguing that actually being a good IC is not some kind of glowing bright holy grail that a lot of people on the site seem to think it is. The IC being put on that pedestal is arguably what stops a lot of people from signing up to be one.
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:27 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Zzzz
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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:38 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 176, Zachrulez wrote:
In post 175, mhsmith0 wrote:
But seriously, playing like absolute garbage, lurking, being toxic, and so on and so forth is simply not stuff that is acceptable for an IC, or at least shouldn't be. Currently it is, or at least de facto is.
I wasn't arguing that any of this was acceptable. I was arguing that actually being a good IC is not some kind of glowing bright holy grail that a lot of people on the site seem to think it is. The IC being put on that pedestal is arguably what stops a lot of people from signing up to be one.
I think there should be resources and training and support so that people who aren’t currently at the level where they’d be good at icing but are interested can become good ICs. I think that increasing the number and quality of ICs is totally doable given will and motivation by those in charge. It’s just that this doesn’t currently exist.

And I guess I should clarify that I don’t want to just dump on management, because the truth is, doing all of this is HARD (and to a fair degree outside the norms of what we’d normally expect from management generally). But if you really want to boost the usefulness and effectiveness of newbie queue, it’s what needs to be done.

PS One thing which I really do think would be helpful all around would be for EVERY new applicant to the IC role to be given a newbie game where they're just an observer, and they talk through what's happening in the game, provide advice and feedback to people in dead thread, etc. Really focus just on the teaching aspect, and get experience at that without having to try and juggle teaching and pursuing a wincon. That'll help people get their feet wet in terms of teaching, and it'll also (bluntly) help whittle out the people who aren't going to be good at or interested in that aspect of the role.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:46 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I think we should see ICs as more than that even.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:11 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

I mean it's fair if you want super high expectations for ICs. You should also expect in turn though that interest in ICing in the newbie queue will drop the higher your expectations of the IC slot are. Just saying.
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:21 am

Post by Toomai »

In post 172, mhsmith0 wrote:I'm also not remotely opposed to a newbie game meta where there are fewer SE slots overall. IC slots exist to teach and set a good example; newbie slots are there to learn and grow. SE slots are mainly there to help fill up a game because there aren't enough IC's and/or newbies to make the game fire. SE players also have even less oversight than IC players (not that IC players currently have much in the way of oversight); as far as I can tell there is essentially nothing you can do as an SE to get banned from the newbie queue unless you're banned from the site and/or mafia games in general. So, for instance, all of the bad things listed above have, from what I can tell, no actual consequences beyond "toxicity that's so bad that you get banned".
SE slots are mostly to help fill up a game, yes, but they also have to provide counterpoint to whatever the IC is saying. A game with 1 IC and 8 newbies will be a bad game because there's not enough anchor for the amount of ships. A game with 2 ICs and 7 newbies could be a bad game because a disagreement on a supposedly objective viewpoint (i.e. game theory) will be a 1v1 and be likely to take up most of the discussion; in addition, the 2 ICs could in theory both roll scum and leave the town with no experienced players (there should be guaranteed at least 1 town non-newbie). Having 3 ICs in a game is too taxing on the volunteer system.

I happen to think there should be an additional block list for newbie games, maintained by the listmod, based on a stricter level of behaviour. Something like (all numbers picked out of a hat):
  • Joining a newbie game as an SE or IC is a service to the site and to new players. You are expected to hold yourself to a higher standard. Actions and behaviour that may not necessarily deserve a ban in the greater queues might result in one from the newbie queue. For example, replacing out of multiple games, creating a toxic environment, or playing against win condition will be more harshly acted upon. Sufficiently negative behaviour may result in being banned while the game is still in progress.
    (should probably be a force-replace rather than a modkill)

  • Players banned from playing all mafia games will be banned an additional 50% of time from newbie games. (Being banned from newbie games has no effect on other queues, though it may be considered in whether to apply further bans.)
  • Players cannot apply to be IC until six months after a newbie game ban expires. Being banned revokes current IC status; re-applying afterward cannot include any references from before or during the ban.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:54 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 181, Toomai wrote:
I happen to think there should be an additional block list for newbie games, maintained by the listmod, based on a stricter level of behaviour. Something like (all numbers picked out of a hat):
  • Joining a newbie game as an SE or IC is a service to the site and to new players. You are expected to hold yourself to a higher standard. Actions and behaviour that may not necessarily deserve a ban in the greater queues might result in one from the newbie queue. For example, replacing out of multiple games, creating a toxic environment, or playing against win condition will be more harshly acted upon. Sufficiently negative behaviour may result in being banned while the game is still in progress.
    (should probably be a force-replace rather than a modkill)

  • Players banned from playing all mafia games will be banned an additional 50% of time from newbie games. (Being banned from newbie games has no effect on other queues, though it may be considered in whether to apply further bans.)
  • Players cannot apply to be IC until six months after a newbie game ban expires. Being banned revokes current IC status; re-applying afterward cannot include any references from before or during the ban.
I agree with the above. With regards to the 2nd point I'd go ahead and just straight up double the ban time. With regards to revoking IC status I'm assuming that a revoked IC would need 5 games of experience post ban. I read that from that point but it doesn't seem completely clear from the language at the same time.
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:36 am

Post by Toomai »

In post 182, Zachrulez wrote:I agree with the above. With regards to the 2nd point I'd go ahead and just straight up double the ban time. With regards to revoking IC status I'm assuming that a revoked IC would need 5 games of experience post ban. I read that from that point but it doesn't seem completely clear from the language at the same time.
Yeah you read it right; I was just trying to throw an idea out there rather than work to provide airtight numbers and language.

Here's another way to put the general overall concept:
  • The newbie queue is for introducing new players to the site in a controlled, welcoming environment. It is not for experienced players to use as a playground of weak opponents.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:04 pm

Post by mastina »

For a point of reference--
In post 174, Zachrulez wrote:You make being an IC sound really complicated. An IC is really just more experienced than the other players in a newbie game on this site. Your main job is to teach people how to play on this site. For the most part all that requires is for you to play the game and then give post game tips after it's over. Occasionally you might find the odd player or two who have no idea what they're doing and you might need to prod/guide them into what to do. But really it's not that complicated. The experience is going to teach the players way more than the IC ever actually will. People tend to overvalue the role of the IC in general in the learning process.
What you're describing as an IC is what most people consider the SE to be, more or less.

Whether that's accurate or not is another matter, but what you were describing literally sounds like a common descriptor for the SE position. Which is usually considered "less than an IC" overall.
Last edited by mastina on Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:06 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 184, mastina wrote:
In post 174, Zachrulez wrote:You make being an IC sound really complicated. An IC is really just more experienced than the other players in a newbie game on this site. Your main job is to teach people how to play on this site. For the most part all that requires is for you to play the game and then give post game tips after it's over. Occasionally you might find the odd player or two who have no idea what they're doing and you might need to prod/guide them into what to do. But really it's not that complicated. The experience is going to teach the players way more than the IC ever actually will. People tend to overvalue the role of the IC in general in the learning process.
What you're describing as an IC is what most people consider the SE to be.
Agree. At least that is the way I view it.
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:50 pm

Post by profii »

Heh I just posted in another thread

Personally I’ve always found it difficult to fully trust an IC because they could be scum (I know that shouldn’t be the case, but you don’t want to show your cards either whilst playing)

I’d like to see a newbie game where the IC is just there but not playing - maybe with a pool of ICs, if one flakes someone could just jump in and answer questions - maybe a convention for IC font colour would make this clear- maybe if they are available for PM if you don’t want to give something away

I think it might make them work better

Edit - in my first newbie game, the IC was NKd night 1, this was a scum tell for a newbie and made the IC useless through no fault of their own. Also in another game I was the doc, I protected a SE because the IC was a bit scummy and it was successful but the logic was if it’s newbie scum I’ll catch them out - it teaches players there is benefit to being “gamey” rather than placing emphasis on trying to read people which goes against the spirit of the game imo
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:42 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

wait are you saying newbies generally kill ICs
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:02 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 187, Gamma Emerald wrote:wait are you saying newbies generally kill ICs
Pretty common for IC's to die by D2, unfortunately. I believe it would be best if there was a "backup" system, where once the IC dies, an SE takes over for that position.
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:10 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

SEs are already kinda considered backup ICs
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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:18 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 189, Gamma Emerald wrote:SEs are already kinda considered backup ICs
Kinda? But def not formally.
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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:13 pm

Post by profii »

In post 187, Gamma Emerald wrote:wait are you saying newbies generally kill ICs
If they are a newbie-newbie scum pair then it’s worked out well for me in my limited experience to make this assumption
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:48 pm

Post by Espeonage »

I have definitely felt that the IC has been doing a shit job while I was an SE. And I ha e tried to time my SE sign up to be in newbie games with poor ICs or ICs whose skill and knowledge I don't respect to attempt to improve the quality of the teaching experience. That said I do not have any completed IC games under my belt so my teaching ability is of an undefined level.

I feel like the most important thing an IC wants is retention of players as the site loses traffic.

I have always liked ICs that do debriefs post game.

I however favour a model that has the IC outside the game who is able to answer basic questions on theory.
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:02 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 192, Espeonage wrote:I however favour a model that has the IC outside the game who is able to answer basic questions on theory.
This is not a bad idea.
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:05 am

Post by Toomai »

Here's the thing with a "10th player" IC: they are always going to be inherently biased in some way.
  • If they're as uninformed as a spectator, they're more likely to be game-solving and thus pro-town.
  • If they know who PRs are, they're probably going to be subconsciously biased towards advice for those roles.
  • If they know who the scum are, they're more likely to accidentally have advice for their exact situation that players can link.
  • If they're as informed as the mod, might as well have the mod do the job, and it's generally considered that's not good.
If there's a desire to decouple IC advice from in-game players, I would say do it like this instead:
  • Have a publicly-viewable document full of IC advice. Being an IC means you have the rights to edit this document.
  • The mod, or a dedicated IC "hydra" account, reads the game and pastes/quotes/links to the IC document, in the game thread or the scum PT, at appropriate times.
  • You could assign ICs to watch games, or have them free-float around at will.
Obviously this won't be as in-tune to the game as a player IC, and there's always going to be arguments over what to put in the repository.

Or, if the problem is just "ICs die too early", allow them to submit future posts to the mod, such as "post this if I die tonight" or "post this if I'm not alive at LyLo". The mod would make the post (as long as they approve that it is only IC advice and no reads or such) but very clearly attribute it to the IC. This obviously has its own problems (e.g. perception of being a treestump).
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:51 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 194, Toomai wrote:Here's the thing with a "10th player" IC: they are always going to be inherently biased in some way.
  • If they're as uninformed as a spectator, they're more likely to be game-solving and thus pro-town.
  • If they know who PRs are, they're probably going to be subconsciously biased towards advice for those roles.
  • If they know who the scum are, they're more likely to accidentally have advice for their exact situation that players can link.
  • If they're as informed as the mod, might as well have the mod do the job, and it's generally considered that's not good.
If there's a desire to decouple IC advice from in-game players, I would say do it like this instead:
  • Have a publicly-viewable document full of IC advice. Being an IC means you have the rights to edit this document.
  • The mod, or a dedicated IC "hydra" account, reads the game and pastes/quotes/links to the IC document, in the game thread or the scum PT, at appropriate times.
  • You could assign ICs to watch games, or have them free-float around at will.
Obviously this won't be as in-tune to the game as a player IC, and there's always going to be arguments over what to put in the repository.

Or, if the problem is just "ICs die too early", allow them to submit future posts to the mod, such as "post this if I die tonight" or "post this if I'm not alive at LyLo". The mod would make the post (as long as they approve that it is only IC advice and no reads or such) but very clearly attribute it to the IC. This obviously has its own problems (e.g. perception of being a treestump).
That is a good idea.
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:32 am

Post by profii »

In post 194, Toomai wrote:Here's the thing with a "10th player" IC: they are always going to be inherently biased in some way.
  • If they're as uninformed as a spectator, they're more likely to be game-solving and thus pro-town.
  • If they know who PRs are, they're probably going to be subconsciously biased towards advice for those roles.
  • If they know who the scum are, they're more likely to accidentally have advice for their exact situation that players can link.
  • If they're as informed as the mod, might as well have the mod do the job, and it's generally considered that's not good.
If there's a desire to decouple IC advice from in-game players, I would say do it like this instead:
  • Have a publicly-viewable document full of IC advice. Being an IC means you have the rights to edit this document.
  • The mod, or a dedicated IC "hydra" account, reads the game and pastes/quotes/links to the IC document, in the game thread or the scum PT, at appropriate times.
  • You could assign ICs to watch games, or have them free-float around at will.
Obviously this won't be as in-tune to the game as a player IC, and there's always going to be arguments over what to put in the repository.

Or, if the problem is just "ICs die too early", allow them to submit future posts to the mod, such as "post this if I die tonight" or "post this if I'm not alive at LyLo". The mod would make the post (as long as they approve that it is only IC advice and no reads or such) but very clearly attribute it to the IC. This obviously has its own problems (e.g. perception of being a treestump).
i like this but would take it 1 step further

The IC document would exist

The IC participant would be a non-player and blind to who is Scum/PR/et al

The role of the IC is to be familiar with the IC document and essentially copy+paste and then explain it


The Non-player-IC can always give advice in the scum PT to keep it private


Some things are fairly generic like, when the time comes, how to cross vote
Teaching vanillas to get lynched ahead of PRs if it’s the right play
How L-1 and intent works

Etc

These things don’t help the game but help people play if that makes sense.

A massive part of the game is not trusting everyone so whilst this forum has an IC function which as a new member I appreciate being in place, my feedback was I don’t feel like I could truly ask stupid questions and get straight answers without playing my hand
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:30 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 196, profii wrote:The IC participant would be a non-player and blind to who is Scum/PR/et al
Agree
The Non-player-IC can always give advice in the scum PT to keep it private
Disagree
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
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Zachrulez
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:32 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 184, mastina wrote:For a point of reference--
In post 174, Zachrulez wrote:You make being an IC sound really complicated. An IC is really just more experienced than the other players in a newbie game on this site. Your main job is to teach people how to play on this site. For the most part all that requires is for you to play the game and then give post game tips after it's over. Occasionally you might find the odd player or two who have no idea what they're doing and you might need to prod/guide them into what to do. But really it's not that complicated. The experience is going to teach the players way more than the IC ever actually will. People tend to overvalue the role of the IC in general in the learning process.
What you're describing as an IC is what most people consider the SE to be, more or less.

Whether that's accurate or not is another matter, but what you were describing literally sounds like a common descriptor for the SE position. Which is usually considered "less than an IC" overall.
I don't talk about the SE role much because I don't think it should exist.
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mhsmith0
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Post Post #199 (ISO) » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:43 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 190, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 189, Gamma Emerald wrote:SEs are already kinda considered backup ICs
Kinda? But def not formally.
Possibly some consider them as such, but it's not remotely official and in fact, SE's can play as badly or as toxically even just as unhelpfully as they like (ditto replacing out of slots they don't feel like playing in, and then hopping into some other game as fits their convenience), and as long as it doesn't rise to the level of "gets a site ban" there are no consequences whatsover for any of this. Moreover, the official guidance is explicit on the lack of responsibility on the part of SE's:
Despite occasional appearances, there is no official authority in the SE position. Since they have been on the site for a while, they can aid players who are new to the site like an IC would, but unlike ICs they are under no
obligation
to do so. They are simply non-Newbies who are playing a Newbie game.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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