about votecounts...

[callforjudgement]

I'm being serious here: I think that if you are providing more than just the basics in the votecount, you are influencing the game as a moderator than you should be.

If players want to know vote history, wagon history etc., then it is their responsibility to do that themselves.

Please can someone who disagree justify why you aren't influencing the game, more than just "it's information available to players anyway."

I don't even like the vote movement thing that I saw Vi use - greying out previous votes etc.

First, let me say that I do indeed do just the basics in the VC. However, I nonetheless want to argue against this point.

I'd say that the way a mod does votecounts will influence the game. I'd also say, though, that it's part of the job of a moderators to influence the game, but in a fair and non-alignment-specific way.

Anything a mod does will influence the game. Posting vote counts with a specific frequency, prodding players, setting deadlines, allowing/disallowing V/LAs, vetting the playerlist and/or replacements, it all has an effect. Generally speaking, the players look to the moderator to ensure that the game is well-run and active, and thus moderator decisions are explicitly designed to have an effect on that. (As an extreme example: if you have a game with no prods and no votecounts except after a lynch, I'd consider that to give a significant advantage to scum. A moderator who moderated like that here on Mafiascum probably wouldn't be moderating much longer.)

What we're asking from a mod, therefore, is not to be un

involved

, but un

biased

. It's best for the moderator to give all factions a fair chance, stick to the rules designed at the start of the game, design the setup in such a way that good play will actually give the faction playing well an advantage (but not an insurmountable advantage), and so on. All of that requires doing things that could arguably be called interventions in a game.

So if you're adding extra information in a votecount, or you

aren't

adding extra information in a votecount, or you're not making vote counts at all, it all has an effect, and it all adds up. In my games, if there are ~24 hours of inactivity after a votecount, I'll post the votecount again. Does that add any information that's useful to any player? Obviously no. Does it interfere with the game? So very yes, it's passive-aggressively but clearly sending the message "hey, players, you should be posting". (My standard prod message is "Hey, you should be posting, so go post!".) Is it a good thing overall? Players have more fun if the game is active, and so moderator intervention to make the game more active is normally welcome. Is it fair? Well, it probably helps town, but if you've established the policy in advance, it's part of the setup and you can take that into account while balancing.

So, you're influencing the game, but the claim in the post I quoted is that you're influencing the game "more than you should be". I don't agree with that. This sort of symmetric, fair influence on a game is exactly the sort of thing that's a moderator's job to do. Different moderators can reasonably have different opinions about how much votecount information is appropriate, but in any case it's fair and the rules for it will quickly be obvious to everyone, so it's within the realm of influences that can reasonably be considered part of moderator discretion.

[Nexus]

Thank you for your detailed response, cfj! Very eloquent.

Do you think that Normal/Newbie games should have just the basics, or do you think that it's alright for them to have the ridiculous amount of information? I can see the argument for a themed game - that's much more mod-centric, usually, but to me a Newbie/Normal game should be the purest VC.

[callforjudgement]

I think it'd be inappropriate for a Newbie because most mods don't do that, and the aim of a Newbie game is to introduce people to the site, so it should have a fairly typical moderation style. (That said, Newbie mods tend to put more effort into keeping players active than mods in other queues, and that's not something that feels inappropriate to me at all; it's the other queues that are wrong there, not the Newbie queue.)

For Normals, I guess it depends on whether the game is meant to be a cookie-cutter "generic Normal" or a game that shows more of the mod's personality and happens to be run in the Normal queue. Most Normals are the former, so you'd expect them to have a particularly bland moderation style in order to keep them all entirely interchangeable, but I thought there was a consensus that the latter is also an acceptable use of the queue.

[Nexus]

I don't think it's ever been discussed for the Normal queue...

[Persivul]

but isn't that for the players to look up instead of being spoon fed info?

Isn't largest wagon something for players to figure out instead of being spoon fed info? (NM if this point has already been made.)

[Nero Cain]

I think there's a huge difference between having to ISO a player to find out who they've voted in the past and the mod having the leading wagon at the top of the VC or having it clearly marked ala plot.

[mastina]

For Normals, I guess it depends on whether the game is meant to be a cookie-cutter "generic Normal" or a game that shows more of the mod's personality and happens to be run in the Normal queue. Most Normals are the former, so you'd expect them to have a particularly bland moderation style in order to keep them all entirely interchangeable, but I thought there was a consensus that the latter is also an acceptable use of the queue.

I'd argue the latter is the lifeblood of the Normal queue for what it's worth.

There are two types of mods who tend to /in to mod for the Normal queue.

One are new-to-mafiascum moderators who need the mod experience in order to run themes. They have the option to run an open instead, and if they aren't impressed with the restrictions on the Normal queue, then they very well may do just that--and then never come back, running themes for the rest of their modding career.

The other are those who are more like what you describe in the latter: they are people who want to run the game in the Normal Queue because of wanting to run a game of that type specifically. We don't have many moderators of this type. How many mods who run a Normal come back to keep running Normals? (With the very possible exception of a mod going mini Normal-->large Normal; this is a reasonably common transition thanks to the requirements for large themes.)

I can almost count the number on one hand--and most of them are NRG members. I fully believe that allowing moderators to run games with quirks in them is what allows for the Normal queue to thrive, and that the more restrictions placed upon a moderator, the less inclined they will be to use the queue given they have alternatives that aren't as limiting.

[Nexus]

Quirks =/= Doing all the work for them. A quirk is a Boonskiies game, where he is using the Normal guidelines and putting his own flavour on them.

I'm not going to put any restrictions on anyone, but I still can't get away from the idea that adding all the superfluous info that gets added is just not massive mod interference.

[Nexus]

But nothing is going to change, it's just a nice conversation to have which I am very happy has remained civil.

[Ginngie]

I mean, Nexus, have you seen it influence a game or just food for thought?

[Nexus]

Food for thought, mainly, and me talking about my personal bias I guess.

[kuribo]

I'm pretty ok with just super basic vote counts. I guess in a way it's nice and stuff to get extras but I don't really feel like it's

needed

. Seems more like an attempt to win a best moderation scummie. *ducks*

Information overload annoys me as a player


I don't need to know who else used to be on what wagon, I just need to know who isn't trying to murder the same people I'm trying to murder so I can gently guide them to the correct outlook on life: namely that whatever isn't killing what I'm killing becomes what I'm killing

[Ircher]

Dear mods,

It has come to my attention that some of you still do vote counts in non-descending order. This is ugly, hard to read and lazy. Please correct this error at your earliest convenience. To those mods that already correctly use descending order in vote counts, I applaud you and think you guys are the best people on this site.

Love,

Nero Cain.

That's a lot of extra work...

[Ginngie]

no it's not, cut and paste is 3 seconds of work

[Ircher]

Unpopular opinion: Mods who do more than just list who has how many votes (include "0" votes, include links, show where votes have moved, etc) are influencing the game in a way that they should not.

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it. You are doing something that other players do in an attempt to scumhunt or an attempt to push mislynches. If you are helping a player concoct a case by giving them that information, its too much.

The job of the mod when making a vote count is to say "This is the current vote count." not "This is the current vote count. This is also when each player moved their vote. This is also who each player was voting." Doing a lot as a mod is a good thing. When those things include gathering information some players like to use, you are influencing the game by providing them what they should have to research.

Are they though?

Like seriously, the extra information that mods like mastina provide is readily accessible to all players, and it can benefit both town and scum players. It doesn't give certain players edges (at least, not as far as I can tell). On the other hand, a lot of hard to find info (such as color-coding and voting patterns that aren't found in VCs) is included. Try making the voting history by hand all at once. It will take you forever for any decent-sized game.

[Ircher]

y. If there's that many posts, then it isn't information which is something that can be found. No human can do that on their own. It's impossible.

If this information can't be found by humans,
Are you telling us you are not human?

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it. You are doing something that other players do in an attempt to scumhunt or an attempt to push mislynches. If you are helping a player concoct a case by giving them that information, its too much.

Without context of a vote, highlighting why a vote was townie or scummy, there is no moderator influence.

You can say it's unfair for a moderator to put L-x as that can determine if a player was hated or loved which could influence someone who was fake claiming as scum or town or whatever really.

(For cases where there are hidden voting weights or lynch modifiers, I use H- instead. Plus I use the standard weight when making that.)

[Ircher]

From a Normal Queue perspective, I do not believe that a mod should be providing any more information than:

Votecount Number

Player being voted (number of votes) - players voting
Not voting (number of votes) - players not voting

Deadline, and number of players it takes to be lynched.

Any more than that, and from my perspective, that is the mod interfering in play - things like including L-1 and stuff ruins gameplay elements of people trying to catch others out.

That's my perspective but obviously people disagree, and that's fine, but that's what I expect in the Normal Queue.

(Now you say this...........................................................................)

[Ircher]

Votecount X.X

Player X (3)

- Player A, Player B, Player C

Player Y (1)

- Player X

Not voting (1)

- Player Y

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is at 5pm BST on Wednesday 16th August 2017 ((expired on 2017-08-16 17:00:00))

If you want VCA

do it yourself

If you want Vote History

look at it yourself

If you want to see how wagons have changed over time

DO IT YOURSELF

My job as moderator is to ensure that the VCs are prompt, accurate and as unobtrusive as possible. My job as moderator is to ensure that the first post is up to date, the second post has rules, the third post has the game start and that is it.

Anything else is excessive, unnecessary, and is more mod intervention than necessary.

At the very least, post linking can act as a verification check. Just sayin'.

I might not mod another normal though after what you said....
Edit: Or maybe I will....

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah that's a bit harsh, and the fact it's the Normal listmod saying this is EVEN MORE intimidating.

[Ircher]

Anyway, I just happened to see this thread, so those were my two cents...

[Mulch]

Until it becomes a technical rule im gonna put l-x on my vote counts

[kuribo]

Frankly you're lucky if I even bother spelling your name correctly

[Nexus]

I mean, it's not an official rule, and it's unlikely to change, but if you don't want to mod another mini Normal then that's your lookout. I'm as entitled to my opinion as much as anyone else.

Do vote counts however you like, it would just put me off playing in your game.

[Nero Cain]

Dear mods,

It has come to my attention that some of you still do vote counts in non-descending order. This is ugly, hard to read and lazy. Please correct this error at your earliest convenience. To those mods that already correctly use descending order in vote counts, I applaud you and think you guys are the best people on this site.

Love,

Nero Cain.

That's a lot of extra work...

no it's not, cut and paste is 3 seconds of work

pwned!

[Junpei]

This is off topic but..

Did whats his face ever do rubix-cube mafia??

I remember that that was the very first game after my newbie game that I wanted to play, but he kept delaying it. What was his name again... it wasn't DH... lame if not.