about votecounts...

[Nero Cain]

Dear mods,

It has come to my attention that some of you still do vote counts in non-descending order. This is ugly, hard to read and lazy. Please correct this error at your earliest convenience. To those mods that already correctly use descending order in vote counts, I applaud you and think you guys are the best people on this site.

Love,

Nero Cain.

[Alisae]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Plotinus]

I prefer to do the wagons in chronological order because it preserves data like "this wagon popped up in response to that one".

I indicate the largest wagons with a

[Nero Cain]

I prefer to do the wagons in chronological order because it preserves data like "this wagon popped up in response to that one".

but isn't that for the players to look up instead of being spoon fed info?

[Plotinus]

It's also more work for me to have to move the order around (especially on a phone).

And sure the players could look it up but we do plenty of things as mods for the ease of our players. We put the votes in chronological order instead of alphabetical order on the individual wagons because the players find that more useful. We update the OP with links to important game events.

Some mods even link to each player's vote in the vote count which I do think is more hassle than it's worth but if they have the time for it and they want to, then why not.

[Alisae]

Some Moderators are mastina.

[mastina]

Some Moderators are mastina.

Speaking of which: at some point I don't know when, I actually used to maintain the wagon chronological order in the Changes From Votecount section, while having the largest-wagon format be the default for the main VC.

Somewhere along the line, that got lost with me instead making the Changes From Last Votecount section be a literal snapshot of the last votecount with the marked changes but that's one thing I've always wanted to ask for player feedback on what they'd find more useful to have.

(Also, at some point I believe I may have marked the exact name of how a person voted a person, so if someone voted mastin, Mastin, mastin2, mastina, tina, mast, M2, or m2, I would have the vote marked as they wrote it, and in parenthesis put the full proper username of the player. But I also didn't maintain that for some reason and have wondered if it's something players would like me to bring back.)

[vonflare]

I endorse this thread

[keyenpeydee]

Some mods even link to each player's vote in the vote count which I do think is more hassle than it's worth but if they have the time for it and they want to, then why not.

I do this ^
I think it helps the players for info and also me to not mess up the votes. It's not really a hassle tbh unless people kept on changing their votes.

[mastina]

Some mods even link to each player's vote in the vote count which I do think is more hassle than it's worth but if they have the time for it and they want to, then why not.

I do this ^
I think it helps the players for info and also me to not mess up the votes. It's not really a hassle tbh unless people kept on changing their votes.

My "Players who have BEEN Voted" section acts a lot like this, though it has a slight weakness in that it records the votes for that player across the whole day, without regard to the current wagon. (I WOULD link to votes in either the Changes section and/or the normal Vote section, but post tags are currently mutually exclusive with color tags, using links instead of post tags is too much work even for me, and rendering the color of players' alignments is something players typically value more when looking at the wagons.)

I

do

however record wagon peaks (as in, every single largest point in a wagon where it had the most votes), and in said wagon peaks I link to every vote. That info isn't in every votecount but can be found on the front page of games I run. (I'm even thinking of adding in a way of noting when the wagon started* and when the wagon ended. I already have when the wagon peaked recorded but those other two variables are currently absent yet potentially useful info to possess.)

*This one might be tricky to implement since the question would be, when would you consider the wagon starting? With the first vote? With the second vote? With the most recent vote to start an ascent in the wagon? (I.e. if a player was sitting with two people voteparking them yet much later a third joined the wagon, recording the third.) Not quite sure what I'd do there but I want to do it.

[Nero Cain]

I'm pretty ok with just super basic vote counts. I guess in a way it's nice and stuff to get extras but I don't really feel like it's

needed

. Seems more like an attempt to win a best moderation scummie. *ducks*

[Randomnamechange]

Some mods even link to each player's vote in the vote count which I do think is more hassle than it's worth but if they have the time for it and they want to, then why not.

I do this ^
I think it helps the players for info and also me to not mess up the votes. It's not really a hassle tbh unless people kept on changing their votes.

The issue here is that on mobile it makes it impossible to fiddle with votecounts if you want to single something out

[mastina]

I guess in a way it's nice and stuff to get extras but I don't really feel like it's

needed

.

It isn't! For what it's worth I'd never intentionally sacrifice quantity for quality, i.e. refuse to give a basic votecount for the sake of making the votecount be perfect. Players need votecounts more than they need perfect votecounts, more than they need pagetop votecounts, etc.

Of course.

That being said

.
I am human and yet also the game moderator.
I am required to at least skim the contents of the game as to make sure there's nothing requiring moderator attention. (Be it mod intervention or something more mundane like fixing a broken quote tag or answering a question.) I can only read so fast. Often by the time I'm ready to give so much as a basic votecount I'm in a position where it's just as fast for me to give the extras, so I figure that I might as well give the extras. (It doesn't take nearly as much time as people assume.)

Players often demand votecounts from me during times when I'm simply not around. (I sleep, I have a life, I play mafia games, etc.) I can only give a votecount when I

am

around, and I can only give a votecount when I actually know where people are voting. (Which is a problem if people are posting so fast and changing their votes so fast that I have trouble keeping up.)

I also err on the side of trying to be sure my votecounts are accurate. I don't want a player to accidentally be hammered due to mod error in a VC (making people think they have less votes than they do), and I don't want a player to be left unhammered due to a mod error in a VC (making people think they have more votes than they do).

I don't want to leave the thread open when it should be locked (or continue the day past the point it should thanks to mod error in a VC where a player was hammered yet I left them alive), and I DEFINITELY don't want to lock the thread prematurely (or even worse, flip a player thanks to mod error in a VC in thinking they're hammered when they are not). When you combine all of that, it's no surprise that I favor accuracy over punctuality. (That being said. While players do post at insanely fast rates. I DO try my best to keep up with them and have votecounts be less than 6 hours late.)

tl;dr: Quantity in VCs usually > Quality, but there is some flexibility between me simply not being able to give a VC and the need to not make an egregious mistake in a VC. (Both which slow down quantity and tip things towards quality.)

[LlamaFluff]

Unpopular opinion: Mods who do more than just list who has how many votes (include "0" votes, include links, show where votes have moved, etc) are influencing the game in a way that they should not.

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it. You are doing something that other players do in an attempt to scumhunt or an attempt to push mislynches. If you are helping a player concoct a case by giving them that information, its too much.

The job of the mod when making a vote count is to say "This is the current vote count." not "This is the current vote count. This is also when each player moved their vote. This is also who each player was voting." Doing a lot as a mod is a good thing. When those things include gathering information some players like to use, you are influencing the game by providing them what they should have to research.

[LlamaFluff]

To me a "proper" vote count is something like:

Vote Count

Player A (3) - Player B, Player C, Player D
Player B (2) - Player A, Player E

Not Voting (2) - Player F, Player G

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is Date

All information is immediately communicated in a concise way that presents clearly.

[PenguinPower]

Unpopular opinion: Mods who do more than just list who has how many votes (include "0" votes, include links, show where votes have moved, etc) are influencing the game in a way that they should not.

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it. You are doing something that other players do in an attempt to scumhunt or an attempt to push mislynches. If you are helping a player concoct a case by giving them that information, its too much.

The job of the mod when making a vote count is to say "This is the current vote count." not "This is the current vote count. This is also when each player moved their vote. This is also who each player was voting." Doing a lot as a mod is a good thing. When those things include gathering information some players like to use, you are influencing the game by providing them what they should have to research.

I agree with this. I'll provide cute images of penguins (because they're awesome) and a reminder of V/LAs (more for myself so I don't necessarily prod), but anything more than the actual vote count at the time should be left to the players.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I'm in agreeement with Llama but in my experience, no one actually uses the extra information given in those vote counts and VCA has been shunned as it should be so it's all good.

[Plotinus]

As a player, I don't do vca, I do my own thing, but I don't get anything out of someone else doing it for me. Looking back over wagons or reading isos means I am rereading or at least reskimming, and that is what I need to do to figure things out. If someone else does it for me I just don't get anything out of it at all.

[Mulch]

Unpopular opinion: Mods who do more than just list who has how many votes (include "0" votes, include links, show where votes have moved, etc) are influencing the game in a way that they should not.

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it. You are doing something that other players do in an attempt to scumhunt or an attempt to push mislynches. If you are helping a player concoct a case by giving them that information, its too much.

The job of the mod when making a vote count is to say "This is the current vote count." not "This is the current vote count. This is also when each player moved their vote. This is also who each player was voting." Doing a lot as a mod is a good thing. When those things include gathering information some players like to use, you are influencing the game by providing them what they should have to research.

I disagree with this.

[keyenpeydee]

I agree with Llama.

[Nexus]

I've definitely had this conversation before and I agree with Llamafluff. The mod should be as hands off as possible. You are there to facilitate - that means accurate roles, rules, votecounts and flips. Nothing more or less.

[Firebringer]

I think the number of people who do VCA on site can be counted on one hand and so i always find it weird mastina gives so much VCA info in vcs when so few use it.

[mastina]

I think the number of people who do VCA on site can be counted on one hand and so i always find it weird mastina gives so much VCA info in vcs when so few use it.

You underestimate the number of people who use it without posting about using it.

[Alisae]

I just put L- Whatever at the end of my votecounts I don't think that's a crime.

[Randomnamechange]

I think putting in 0 votes is useful just in terms of remembering the playerlidt but other than that i agree with llama