The New Newbie Game Setup

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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:17 pm

Post by implosion »

In post 52, Mulch wrote:Town roleblocker is negative effect half the time
This is a bit inaccurate, I think.

A town roleblocker blocking the other town role is some negative utility, but also has positive utility by role-confirming the town roleblocker, and by confirming that the target didn't make the kill that night. A mafia roleblocker will have a tough time claiming town roleblocker; there will always be a town roleblocker or tracker to counterclaim them. Which means that this:
Mulch wrote:Yeah I didn't even take into account the town rber could easily be a scum rber lmfao
isn't actually a big concern. If a roleblocker claims, confirms their role in one way or another (either by being the only source of a missed nightkill or by having a town PR claim they were blocked), and is un-counterclaimed, then they are town.

I assume the argument here is that half the time the roleblocker's action matters, they'll hit a town PR, and the other half of the time they'll hit scum making the kill. Or maybe you just meant that in general it's weak. But the knowledge that a given player didn't make the kill is valuable, obviously especially so when there's only one scum left in which case it clears a player. Roleblocker and tracker are stereotypically weak roles, but they are significantly more powerful the fewer mafia are in the game because the probability that they hit the mafia that made the kill given that they hit some mafia goes up. This dynamic will play out a lot differently in a semi-open setup. For games that you point to where the roleblocker had a negative impact on the town, I can point you to games where they've largely won the town the game (the one time I drew town roleblocker I blocked the last scum and basically sealed a potentially shaky town win).


As for the specific setups you listed as sided one way or the other in post 48, I guess I just generally don't really agree that most of setups 5-8 are townsided. 5 probably is, and is probably the most of any of them. Regarding 6, Doctor + jailkeeper is a somewhat antisynergistic combination since they won't know which blocked the kill, and there's no investigative power, and the rolecop can find them if the pace of nights slows down. Regarding 7, the mafia get to "look at" two people a night via kill + rolecop and the town has no protective power, so as soon as they find a PR that PR is dead. So unless the PRs claim on d2, they're almost certainly not both making it to d3 to announce their results. Regarding 8, I'd be curious why you think it's townsided, since rolecop and jailkeeper are somewhat antisynergistic as well and the town rolecop can only find one scum, and jailkeeper only has one scum that they can target to get a "guilty" by blocking the kill.

Regarding the setups you think are scumsided i will maybe comment on those tomorrow. Also to be clear everything in this post might be wrong, these are just the reasons that I think those setups can be seen as balanced for the most part, and I'd love to hear more in-depth reasoning on why they aren't because balance is a very tricky thing to get right.

Also to be clear I was involved in the setup design and so I am looking at the setup through a somewhat biased lens. Which is why I/we really need as many people as possible to articulate the problems that they see in either the setup as a whole or individual setups in as much detail as they can - I'm curious if you think the roleblocker's inherent negative utility will necessarily have the same degree of impact in this situation as in those that you're comparing it to and why.
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:01 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 50, Virtuoso wrote:I would propose
Mafia RB > Town RB > Town JK
This is considered site standard elsewhere on the site. While not universal, it is by FAR the most common, and it has a strong mafia history backing it. (Mafia roles trumping town roles; roleblocker > RB variant in this case JK.) Soyeah, I do support this.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:47 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

Hype. I skimmed the thread, I'm just hype to see a new change.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:27 am

Post by Mulch »

In post 75, implosion wrote:
In post 52, Mulch wrote:Town roleblocker is negative effect half the time
This is a bit inaccurate, I think.

A town roleblocker blocking the other town role is some negative utility, but also has positive utility by role-confirming the town roleblocker
How exactly does this happen? :]



, and by confirming that the target didn't make the kill that night. A mafia roleblocker will have a tough time claiming town roleblocker; there will always be a town roleblocker or tracker to counterclaim them.
Actually a fairly good point. If there is a town roleblocker, that means there can't be a tracker or another roleblocker. So, that's actually something that i didn't take into effect and heavily helps this town rber be an "inno child" and drastically improves the setup imo. However, still do think it's negative utility.
I'm just speaking from experiencein a lot of 9 player games.


Which means that this:
Mulch wrote:Yeah I didn't even take into account the town rber could easily be a scum rber lmfao
isn't actually a big concern. If a roleblocker claims, confirms their role in one way or another (either by being the only source of a missed nightkill or by having a town PR claim they were blocked), and is un-counterclaimed, then they are town.

I assume the argument here is that half the time the roleblocker's action matters, they'll hit a town PR, and the other half of the time they'll hit scum making the kill. Or maybe you just meant that in general it's weak. But the knowledge that a given player didn't make the kill is valuable, obviously especially so when there's only one scum left in which case it clears a player.
That's the thing though. It 1) Can hit the town power roles 2) Can hit the mafia NOT doing the kill 3) Can sometimes be manipulated by a no kill. It's much more of an "end game" role which also disincentivizes bussing, which I think we should not be slanting one way or another. The option to bus or not to bus should have a fair chance of winning relative to the situation and not automatically forced into being a bad strategic decision in the beginning.




Roleblocker and tracker are stereotypically weak roles, but they are significantly more powerful the fewer mafia are in the game because the probability that they hit the mafia that made the kill given that they hit some mafia goes up. This dynamic will play out a lot differently in a semi-open setup. For games that you point to where the roleblocker had a negative impact on the town, I can point you to games where they've largely won the town the game (the one time I drew town roleblocker I blocked the last scum and basically sealed a potentially shaky town win).

Perhaps. Again, just speaking from experience. Also, note that town prs tend to die very quickly in newbie games :lol:



As for the specific setups you listed as sided one way or the other in post 48, I guess I just generally don't really agree that most of setups 5-8 are townsided. 5 probably is, and is probably the most of any of them.
Yeah, that one is gonna be bad



Regarding 6, Doctor + jailkeeper is a somewhat antisynergistic combination since they won't know which blocked the kill, and there's no investigative power, and the rolecop can find them if the pace of nights slows down.
However, it also sets up the possibility of (1/2?) the time setting up an instantly winning play for the jailkeeper to claim, getting completely healed and still be able to be the rber AND doctor. I do agree that maybe I am overestimating how much they will get in each other's way, though, but 2 healing roles seems a little powerful.


Regarding 7, the mafia get to "look at" two people a night via kill + rolecop and the town has no protective power, so as soon as they find a PR that PR is dead. So unless the PRs claim on d2, they're almost certainly not both making it to d3 to announce their results. Regarding 8, I'd be curious why you think it's townsided, since rolecop and jailkeeper are somewhat antisynergistic as well and the town rolecop can only find one scum, and jailkeeper only has one scum that they can target to get a "guilty" by blocking the kill.

Regarding the setups you think are scumsided i will maybe comment on those tomorrow. Also to be clear everything in this post might be wrong, these are just the reasons that I think those setups can be seen as balanced for the most part, and I'd love to hear more in-depth reasoning on why they aren't because balance is a very tricky thing to get right.

Also to be clear I was involved in the setup design and so I am looking at the setup through a somewhat biased lens. Which is why I/we really need as many people as possible to articulate the problems that they see in either the setup as a whole or individual setups in as much detail as they can - I'm curious if you think the roleblocker's inherent negative utility will necessarily have the same degree of impact in this situation as in those that you're comparing it to and why.
Will respond to the other parts when I have time.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:32 am

Post by Virtuoso »

In post 76, mastina wrote:
In post 50, Virtuoso wrote:I would propose
Mafia RB > Town RB > Town JK
This is considered site standard elsewhere on the site. While not universal, it is by FAR the most common, and it has a strong mafia history backing it. (Mafia roles trumping town roles; roleblocker > RB variant in this case JK.) Soyeah, I do support this.
Yeah. I think it should be the set in stone way of resolving actions via NAR and normal guidelines IMO
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:39 am

Post by Toomai »

I plan to continue my stats-tracking with this new setup. So I'll need to get things set in stone as soon as possible so I can re-create the new spreadsheet.

Here's my current list of assumptions, please correct me if necessary.
  • We are using the new Creature-split table everywhere, and the old 3x3 table nowhere. This is important because they have different rules as to which re-rolls are necessary.
  • The SE and IC system remains unchanged; games can be 5Nb-3SE-1IC or 6Nb-2SE-1IC depending on supply and demand, and this is not expected to change.
  • There are 27 possible 3d3 rolls:
    • There are 15 rolls that are invalid setups, and are re-rolled:
      • 1,1,1
      • 1,1,2
      • 1,1,3
      • 1,2,1
      • 1,3,1
      • 2,1,1
      • 2,1,2
      • 2,1,3
      • 2,2,1
      • 2,3,1
      • 3,1,1
      • 3,1,2
      • 3,1,3
      • 3,2,1
      • 3,3,1
    • There are 12 valid setups of equal probability:
      • 1,2,2: Tracker & Cop vs Roleblocker
      • 1,2,3: Tracker & Jailkeeper vs Roleblocker
      • 1,3,2: Roleblocker & Cop vs Roleblocker
      • 1,3,3: Roleblocker & Jailkeeper vs Roleblocker
      • 2,2,2: Doctor & Cop vs Rolecop
      • 2,2,3: Doctor & Jailkeeper vs Rolecop
      • 2,3,2: Rolecop & Cop vs Rolecop
      • 2,3,3: Rolecop & Jailkeeper vs Rolecop
      • 3,2,2: Doctor & Tracker vs Goon
      • 3,2,3: Doctor & Roleblocker vs Goon
      • 3,3,2: Rolecop & Tracker vs Goon
      • 3,3,3: Rolecop & Roleblocker vs Goon
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:53 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

It's essentially a three sided die roll and then a pair of two sided dice roll (so talking about rerolls in that context isn't super needed - honestly you could just rename the die sides "1 and 2" for town rolls and be fine. 3d3 is a bit of a misnomer, really it's just 3D, with only the first die truly being 3-sided.

So a system like A23 B33 C22 or whatever might be helpful (I'd tend to visually separate out the scum die roll from the town rolls but that's admittedly mire of a "me" thing)

Experience distributions of 6/2/1 and 5/3/1 MIGHT change? My understanding is that it's going to be up for discussion. But even if it does change, it'd likely be a delayed rollout anyway compared to the new setup (among other things, I think if we ever get an IC backlog, going like 5/2/2 or even 6/1/2 would probably be fine... and MAYBE in weird cases 4/3/2?)
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:57 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

Wrt the triangle, we essentially need a determination of what happens given:

Scum Roleblocker -> town Roleblocker -> town jailkeeper -> scum Roleblocker
Scum Roleblocker -> town jailkeeper -> town Roleblocker -> scum Roleblocker

1) Do we just presume all three slots fail with their night actions?
2) Do we give scum Roleblocker immunity in this situation (I lean towards this being fair fwiw, so if one town blocker hits scum but is blocked by the other town blocker, then scum Roleblocker can still make the night kill)
3) Does the jailkeeper still protect (I lean towards no - obviously only relevant if jailkeeper targeting town Roleblocker, while scum shoot town Roleblocker)

However that's determined, it needs to be explicitly spelled out because it is NOT standard.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
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Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:13 am

Post by Creature »

Sorta think Town Roleblocker and Mafia Roleblocker shouldn't come together.
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:14 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Think scum and town roleblocker should be concurrent, as should roleblockers and jailkeepers.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:27 am

Post by Toomai »

In post 81, mhsmith0 wrote:So a system like A23 B33 C22 or whatever might be helpful (I'd tend to visually separate out the scum die roll from the town rolls but that's admittedly mire of a "me" thing)
I really like this for readability, but it comes with a disconnect from the codified setup table.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:40 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

I think that basically fixes it to more clearly separate out the scum town rands?
In post 9, Creature wrote:I guess a least confusing table would be this:
Table ATable BTable C
First dieMafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3
Second dieTown
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Third dieTown
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker

* = Number 1s other than first die are rerolled
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:30 am

Post by Toomai »

Maybe we should take the two town dice and change them from "2 or 3, reroll 1" to "1 or 2, reroll 3". It'll look less confusing at first glance (people won't be asking where the 1 is).

Table ATable BTable C
First dieMafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Number 1Number 2Number 1Number 2Number 1Number 2
Second dieTown
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Third dieTown
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker

This means the list of setups would be:
  • A11: RB x Tr + Cp
  • A12: RB x Tr + JK
  • A21: RB x RB + Cp
  • A22: RB x RB + JK
  • B11: RC x Dc + Cp
  • B12: RC x Dc + JK
  • B21: RC x RC + Cp
  • B22: RC x RC + JK
  • C11: Gn x Dc + Tr
  • C12: Gn x Dc + RB
  • C21: Gn x RC + Tr
  • C22: Gn x RC + RB
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:51 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

Yeah basically. I think that basically gets there on a simple visual basis.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:56 am

Post by Plotinus »

In post 87, Toomai wrote:Maybe we should take the two town dice and change them from "2 or 3, reroll 1" to "1 or 2, reroll 3". It'll look less confusing at first glance (people won't be asking where the 1 is).

Table ATable BTable C
First dieMafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Number 1Number 2Number 1Number 2Number 1Number 2
Second dieTown
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Third dieTown
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker

This means the list of setups would be:
  • A11: RB x Tr + Cp
  • A12: RB x Tr + JK
  • A21: RB x RB + Cp
  • A22: RB x RB + JK
  • B11: RC x Dc + Cp
  • B12: RC x Dc + JK
  • B21: RC x RC + Cp
  • B22: RC x RC + JK
  • C11: Gn x Dc + Tr
  • C12: Gn x Dc + RB
  • C21: Gn x RC + Tr
  • C22: Gn x RC + RB
I think this is almost the clearest chart, but one thing that was clear in one of the charts but is not clear in this one: what are mafia's safeclaims? You can kind of parse it out if you think about that in Table A the safeclaims are doctor-or-cop, in table B they're tracker-or-cop and table C they're roleblocker-or-jailkeeper, but that's not obvious from the chart and it should be.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:36 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I'm worried that this setup will lead to a lot of mod errors. My experience is that very few players and mods really understand NAR, and it's very relevant in some setups.

Here's an example (which I expect many people to get right but many to get wrong): scum RB kills town RB and blocks town JK, town RB blocks scum RB, town JK jailkeeps the scum RB. What happens?

Spoiler: What actually happens
Even though the scum RB takes precedence when there's an action loop, and there
is
an action loop here (the scum RB and town JK cross-blocking), there's also an action that isn't interfered with: nobody is trying to prevent the town RB's action (the kill attempt wouldn't count as stopping an action). So by NAR's Golden Rule, that triggers first, blocking all the scum RB's actions. The jailkeep on the scum RB also therefore succeeds, although it doesn't matter because the scum RB couldn't act anyway (it would matter if someone tried to vig the RB, as it'd cause that to fail).


EDIT: Based on discussion in this thread, a second example: scum RB kills and blocks town RB, town RB blocks town JK, town JK jailkeeps scum RB. What happens?

Spoiler: What actually happens
We now actually do have an action loop involving all the actions but the kill (and the kill is potentially blocked as part of the loop). So we pick the scum roleblock to automatically succeed (as it's the first action in tiebreak order). That works, blocking the town RB. As a result, nothing is blocking the town JK, so the scum RB is jailkept; their roleblock has already happened but their kill hasn't, and so the kill doesn't go through.



In other news, I agree that a clearer way to represent the setup is needed. What about this?: (it uses different die rolls but is mathematically equivalent, and makes the structure of the setup clear)

3d3Randomly select one role each from the following lists:
  • Mafia Roleblocker, Town Doctor, Town Rolecop
  • Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Roleblocker
  • Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Jailkeeper
If
exactly one
Mafia role is selected this way, then add 1 Mafia Goon and 5 vanilla Townies to form a 9-player setup.
Otherwise, reroll the entire setup.
Last edited by callforjudgement on Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:42 am

Post by Toomai »

In post 89, Plotinus wrote:I think this is almost the clearest chart, but one thing that was clear in one of the charts but is not clear in this one: what are mafia's safeclaims? You can kind of parse it out if you think about that in Table A the safeclaims are doctor-or-cop, in table B they're tracker-or-cop and table C they're roleblocker-or-jailkeeper, but that's not obvious from the chart and it should be.
I disagree that safeclaims need to be obvious from the setup chart.

Additional note: If a Town Tracker targets a scum PR who is PR'ing someone and killing someone else on the same night, the Tracker will receive a result of "Your target visited both A and B last night", which is basically as strong as a cop guilty. I don't think this has happened before in Newbie setups, so this may need to be clarified in the ruleset as a possibility.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:55 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 90, callforjudgement wrote:I'm worried that this setup will lead to a lot of mod errors. My experience is that very few players and mods really understand NAR, and it's very relevant in some setups.

Here's an example (which I expect many people to get right but many to get wrong): scum RB kills town RB and blocks town JK, town RB blocks scum RB, town JK jailkeeps the scum RB. What happens?

Spoiler: What actually happens
Even though the scum RB takes precedence when there's an action loop, and there
is
an action loop here (the scum RB and town JK cross-blocking), there's also an action that isn't interfered with: nobody is trying to prevent the town RB's action (the kill attempt wouldn't count as stopping an action). So by NAR's Golden Rule, that triggers first, blocking all the scum RB's actions. The jailkeep on the scum RB also therefore succeeds, although it doesn't matter because the scum RB couldn't act anyway (it would matter if someone tried to vig the RB, as it'd cause that to fail).


EDIT: Based on discussion in this thread, a second example: scum RB kills and blocks town RB, town RB blocks town JK, town JK jailkeeps scum RB. What happens?

Spoiler: What actually happens
We now actually do have an action loop involving all the actions but the kill (and the kill is potentially blocked as part of the loop). So we pick the scum roleblock to automatically succeed (as it's the first action in tiebreak order). That works, blocking the town RB. As a result, nothing is blocking the town JK, so the scum RB is jailkept; their roleblock has already happened but their kill hasn't, and so the kill doesn't go through.



In other news, I agree that a clearer way to represent the setup is needed. What about this?: (it uses different die rolls but is mathematically equivalent, and makes the structure of the setup clear)

3d3Randomly select one role each from the following lists:
  • Mafia Roleblocker, Town Doctor, Town Rolecop
  • Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Roleblocker
  • Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Jailkeeper
If
exactly one
Mafia role is selected this way, then add 1 Mafia Goon and 5 vanilla Townies to form a 9-player setup.
Otherwise, reroll the entire setup.
This looks nice.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:03 am

Post by Toomai »

In post 90, callforjudgement wrote:I'm worried that this setup will lead to a lot of mod errors. My experience is that very few players and mods really understand NAR, and it's very relevant in some setups.

Here's an example (which I expect many people to get right but many to get wrong): scum RB kills town RB and blocks town JK, town RB blocks scum RB, town JK jailkeeps the scum RB. What happens?

Spoiler: What actually happens
Even though the scum RB takes precedence when there's an action loop, and there
is
an action loop here (the scum RB and town JK cross-blocking), there's also an action that isn't interfered with: nobody is trying to prevent the town RB's action (the kill attempt wouldn't count as stopping an action). So by NAR's Golden Rule, that triggers first, blocking all the scum RB's actions. The jailkeep on the scum RB also therefore succeeds, although it doesn't matter because the scum RB couldn't act anyway (it would matter if someone tried to vig the RB, as it'd cause that to fail).


EDIT: Based on discussion in this thread, a second example: scum RB kills and blocks town RB, town RB blocks town JK, town JK jailkeeps scum RB. What happens?

Spoiler: What actually happens
We now actually do have an action loop involving all the actions but the kill (and the kill is potentially blocked as part of the loop). So we pick the scum roleblock to automatically succeed (as it's the first action in tiebreak order). That works, blocking the town RB. As a result, nothing is blocking the town JK, so the scum RB is jailkept; their roleblock has already happened but their kill hasn't, and so the kill doesn't go through.
Well the good news is that these complex situations can only arise in 1/12 subsetups, and the rules are pretty clear about what happens in the other 2 setups involving multiple blockers should they cross-target.

That said, when it comes to these few convolulted cases, maybe the newbie queue should have in one of its first posts a section for "if you come upon a really weird interaction that you're not 100% on, here's exactly how it should be resolved".

(though your second example shows a disconnect between whether a
player
is blocked or their
actions
are blocked; that needs to be sorted out)
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:34 am

Post by T-Bone »

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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:49 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Here's another possibility for a table. In this one, you simply pick one mafia role and then pick one town role from each adjacent box, adding a Mafia Goon and 5 VT's.
Mafia Roleblocker
Town Tracker

----OR----
Town Roleblocker
Town Cop

----OR----
Town Jailkeeper
Mafia Goon
Town Doctor

----OR----
Town Rolecop
Mafia Rolecop

I think this makes it even easier to quickly understand the possible setups, and it isn't as busy. It doesn't detail exactly how the setup is chosen like the others do, but the table is meant for players (and the moderator is given the setup to use by the listmod anyway).

By the way, I think it's an awesome setup, even with the balance concerns. I really like that there are 2 guaranteed town PR's but the scum still have decent fakeclaims.

Also Mulch, any PR in an open setup has significant town utility, even if it is never used to any effect. The negative utility caused by the RB blocking another town PR that would otherwise have done something useful is slim in comparison.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:11 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 95, Something_Smart wrote:Here's another possibility for a table. In this one, you simply pick one mafia role and then pick one town role from each adjacent box, adding a Mafia Goon and 5 VT's.
Mafia Roleblocker
Town Tracker

----OR----
Town Roleblocker
Town Cop

----OR----
Town Jailkeeper
Mafia Goon
Town Doctor

----OR----
Town Rolecop
Mafia Rolecop

I think this makes it even easier to quickly understand the possible setups, and it isn't as busy. It doesn't detail exactly how the setup is chosen like the others do, but the table is meant for players (and the moderator is given the setup to use by the listmod anyway).
I like this one. It's faster to read than mine is, and it shows the structure of the setup just as well.
It might look better as an image than as a table, though, so that it could be more symmetrical. Perhaps it could be more symmetrical with table markup, too:

Mafia
Roleblocker
Town Cop

or
Jailkeeper
Town Tracker

or
Roleblocker
Mafia
Rolecop
Mafia
Goon
Town Doctor

or
Rolecop


There's still annoying amounts of asymmetry here, though. Any ideas how to make all the columns the same width? Removing the borders on the "blank" cells would also be nice; you can do that in HTML but I'm not sure you can do it in BBcode.
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:14 am

Post by Something_Smart »

My original idea was a triangle, which would probably look the nicest, though we'd need image for that. The one you made might look better with the corner cells just removed (and merged into the adjacent cells), though I do like how it resembles a brick wall :P
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:16 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Ooh actually it would look even nicer in a honeycomb-ish pattern.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:05 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

It makes me think of Mario brick blocks
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