The New Newbie Game Setup

[Realeo]

The first step here in giving scum daytalk is it should probably be in the form of an encrypter
you know
that one role you never see anywhere else on site but in normals

Then maybe make it Odd or Even Night?
Essentially sometimes you have daytalk sometimes you don't

I think in a mafia with two person, daychat with or without an ecryptor is essentially the same?

I would endorse the Odd or Even Day day chat idea. Maybe something that day chat is open except on MYLO or LYLO.

[Alisae]

if the encrypter dies daytalk gets shut down that's the difference.

[fferyllt]

If either mafia player dies, day chat gets shut down.

[Lycanfire]

if it were my birthday i would also grace you all with my inebriated presence.

[Alisae]

If either mafia player dies, day chat gets shut down.

I just remembered this was a micro
go sleepysae

[Alisae]

But no 72 hours into the phase is a terrible idea it incentives scum to attempt to force quicklynches so that they don't have to worry about their daytalk going down
It incetives town to just
not do anything
for 72 hours
And that is flat out boring.

If I'm wrong somewhere it's probably because I'm about to head to bed for once at a decent time.

[Gamma Emerald]

Odd day actually sounds alright to me, maybe make it day 1? That way you can have them be walked through to basics but not be completely handheld through it.

[RadiantCowbells]

If mafia are desired to have day talk then town need to be stronger to deal with it

[Lycanfire]

Mafias don't use day talk effectively any how. The real solution is for mods to stop giving it for free when there's no set up reason to. Not to acclimate newbies to a mechanic that won't be used well outside of a Newbie game.

[Alisae]

Mafias don't use day talk effectively any how. The real solution is for mods to stop giving it for free when there's no set up reason to. Not to acclimate newbies to a mechanic that won't be used well outside of a Newbie game.

I spam the shit out of my daytalk and try to get my buddies to do the same because I understand that's important

point is
Using it effectively is strong and not using it is dumb, but saying everyone doesn't use ite effectively is just false.
Daytalk is just as strong as those using it.
Plus, we can just teach them how to use it well.

We put daytalk in our games because its a fun mechanic to have in said games.
We don't NEED a setup reason to put it into the game unless you're modding a normal.


And okay
let me refine my encrypter idea, because I feel like I was going somewhere with it but didn't know where when I thought about it
replace the Mafia Goon with an Encrypter so the 3 roles because Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Encrypter.
So only like a third of the setups are going to have daytalk.

[Virtuoso]

I don't really see the point in an encryptor. Once one mafia member is dead, the encryptor becomes moot anyway. Might as well be a goon

[fferyllt]

alisae is suggesting that daytalk for mafia not be the default, but be dependent on scum drawing an encryptor instead of a roleblocker or rolecop.

I think that would be an overall weak scum team, but it's something to think about.

[mhsmith0]

Another concept is just gating the scum power role draws and going from there, like probably just one shot rolecop or Roleblocker, which lads to different levels of town power (for starters, you can reasonably toss a town one shot Roleblocker or rolecop onto the left die since it's JUUUUUST a little bit more than a vt).

[RadiantCowbells]

I think we should stop trying to make 'neat' setups with the 3d3 and m6 stuff and just pick the setups that work and randomize one of them.

[RadiantCowbells]

like tracker/doc/goon works
jailkeeper/goon/goon works
cop/goon/goon works
cop/doc/rb/goon works

the problematic ones are the bulletproof ones (both wr wise and oh no bulletproof claim strat wise), so let's just replace those with something else that works better?

[Realeo]

alisae is suggesting that daytalk for mafia not be the default, but be dependent on scum drawing an encryptor instead of a roleblocker or rolecop.

I think that would be an overall weak scum team, but it's something to think about.

NOW IT MAKE SENSES

[hitogoroshi]

Firstly, I don't think adding scum daytalk is a good idea. I understand the appeal of it but we have done the experiment and the town win rates were horrid. I don't know why you'd want to have a set-up like Doctor-Tracker which already didn't have a stellar town rate (43.7%) and add scum daytalk and the potential for an easy scum fakeclaim.

I think I agree with this (and this is as someone who likes daytalk generally). I can sympathize with the idea that newbie scum might be overwhelmed, lynched D1, and never return - but in those situations, what's the alternative? SE/IC laboriously coaching them out of the hole in the PT? This has an unhealthy impact where you really want to force newbies under pressure to commit to responding to questions very quickly, so they don't have time to be coached. If you wanna talk about things that would drive away newbies, how about being scumread because your response was delayed three hours? If a newbie does a misplay so bad they evidently weren't coached, doesn't that significantly point to every experienced player being town? Having daytalk on D1 in particular does some pretty gross things if there is a subset of players that are very likely to require substantial coaching. Not to mention the unfair burden it puts on SE/IC players - having the game basically hinge on whether you can do a heroic private effort and also keep up public appearances while being on the site often enough that your coaching can't be activity-told is not fun for either member of that scumteam. And their morale was the design goal in the first place!

If we want to make newbie scum feel less bad, I'd prefer just letting them swap roles with their scumbuddies in pregame (this would be better if there was no 2x goon setup, obviously, but worth mentioning even with setup as proposed). At least then if you're lynched D1 as a newbie it feels like you had a bit of control over your own destiny - either you feel "well, I died, but I made the right decision to be vanilla" or "Well, I made a mistake gambiting to have the PR" and now your mistake feels very discrete and solvable ("Don't get lynched" is hard to fix but "Don't assume I won't get lynched" is easy!). Also, having the very beginning of D1 open with "Okay, all else being equal, the more experienced players are slightly more likely to have the PRs if they're scum" and pulling the spotlight slightly away from newer players can't hurt.

[Alisae]

You could even use that spotlight to hide your newbie partner!!!!!!!
owo what's this?
Creative scumplay????????

[RadiantCowbells]

The implication is that newbie scum are significantly less likely to get lynched than experienced scum and I don't know how true that is.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hito I think you struck gold

[hitogoroshi]

The implication is that newbie scum are significantly less likely to get lynched than experienced scum and I don't know how true that is.

I don't think it would make it significant, nor do I want it to. But people fixate on the most inane mechanical details at the start of the game to try to get it going, and having those inane details nudge you away from newbies and towards experienced players is, I think, a kind thing to do.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think I need to go though by like 50 completed newbies and test rates of slots being lynched.

[fferyllt]

I don't know if it's still the case, but the data that Toomai and GoodMorning gathered about the newbie games included info about replace-outs. Newbie scum had a high replacement rate. I think the scumchat experiment improved the replacement rate.

I could be remembering wrong. I haven't looked at that data in a while.

[RadiantCowbells]

That is true.

[mhsmith0]

Eyeballing the spreadsheet tab (all through 1651 vs the 40 game trial, 1652-1691)...

1) The OVERALL newbie replaceout rate was basically flat (very slightly higher but lolsamplesize), with town newbie replacements going up and scum rate going down

2) The SE replacement rate went up. A lot. Like, all games through 1651 it was 25% of SE slots getting replaced, the 40 games through 1651 it was just 16%. But in the test? A robust 32%, and for whatever reason it went up for
BOTH town and scum SE slots. IC replacement rate was also up but that's such a crazy low sample size I wouldn't read into it at all.