The New Newbie Game Setup

[Virtuoso]

One thing that I do

love

about the new setup is that it doubles the possible setups from 6 to 12. I think that's a welcome improvement.

[Mulch]

This chart better change cause it confuses the fuck out of me and I'm not a newbie

[Virtuoso]

Another thing I like about this setup is that it nearly eliminates the possibility of follow the cop when a roleblocker is lynched

[Mulch]

Some of the setups seem insanely town sided and some seem scum sided

[Mulch]

How is it fair to have a jailkeeper and a doctor for town and only a rolecop for mafia??

[mhsmith0]

Which ones seem insanely townsided, and which seem scumsided to you?

[mhsmith0]

jk/doc/rolecop was actually one of the rands in 2 of 4
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=2of4

does anyone know what the stats for that were?

[Mulch]

All the ones with mafia role cop are town sided and a lot of the ones with mafia roleblocker are scum sided.

Also, why are you letting town pick better roles with a mafia rolecop than a mafia roleblocker when in a 9 person game roleblocker is 10000x better than rolecop?

[Virtuoso]

jk/doc/rolecop was actually one of the rands in 2 of 4
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=2of4

does anyone know what the stats for that were?

looking at the history it looks like it was only ran once?

viewtopic.php?t=18887

[Virtuoso]

Ah that's just outside the newbie queue. I apologize.

[mhsmith0]

All the ones with mafia role cop are town sided and a lot of the ones with mafia roleblocker are scum sided.

Also, why are you letting town pick better roles with a mafia rolecop than a mafia roleblocker when in a 9 person game roleblocker is 10000x better than rolecop?

when scum get a rolecop, town gets (doctor or rolecop) and (cop or jaikeeper)

when scum get a roleblocker, town gets (tracker or roleblocker) and (cop or jailkeeper)

(tracker or roleblocker) seem >> (doctor or rolecop) IMO. Tracker vs doc potentially debatable, but roleblocker >> doctor or tracker > rolecop

[Mulch]

If mafia rolecop is picked, town cannot get tracker or roleblocker, two bad town roles. Meanwhile if mafia roleblocker is picked, town cannot get doctor or rolecop, two good town roles.

Yet, mafia roleblocker acts IN EFFECT as a rolecop ANYWAY in a 9 person game, especially with such setup knowledge. Which means it's drastically better than a rolecop. Also, this is sort of a known fact that roleblocker is the best mafia role and rolecop is second to this, let alone in a 9 person game with so many kills anyway and so many claims with newbies which make rolecop even more likely to be useless.

LET ALONE THE FACT that town rolecop actually guilties a mafia role cop!!!

[Mulch]

So even if the two rows were COMPLETELY balanced in roles that town gets eliminated for each one (and personally, I think that own role cop and town doctor are much better than town tracker and town roleblocker, especially with newbies who can completely fuck up the roleblocker), the mafia roleblocker gets such an insane advantage that it's not fair imo

[fferyllt]

jk/doc/rolecop was actually one of the rands in 2 of 4
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=2of4

does anyone know what the stats for that were?

I don't know about the stats, but in my first newbie game the scum team won against that setup. We didn't even get a useful rolecop out of it either. Day play ftw.

[Mulch]

Also PLEASE use Creature's chart, that cleared it up somewhat. Otherwise if I was a newbie I would be like I don't understand this get me out lol

[fferyllt]

Also PLEASE use Creature's chart, that cleared it up somewhat. Otherwise if I was a newbie I would be like I don't understand this get me out lol

Yeah, we'll either use Creature's chart or if possible, better it.

[Virtuoso]

I do worry this setup will become too confusing for newbies

[mhsmith0]

Town roleblocker in a micro is potentially super powerful. There is literally NOTHING that scum can do to kill the roleblocker if he picks correctly once game is down to one scum, which makes it the strongest weapon against a scum roleblocker.

Meanwhile, it can directly block the scum kill when it's a goon-goon team

Rolecop is substantially less useful than tracker, because it can ONLY cop PRs, whereas the tracker can see someone delivering the kill AND can still cop the scum PR actively doing something at night AND can get a hard guilty on a scum target visiting two different people (scum PR plus delivering kill).

[mhsmith0]

I do worry this setup will become too confusing for newbies

It's a potential consideration, which is why clear presentation and probably a standardized setup discussion are probably going to be part of every mod's opening posts in this setup.

[Virtuoso]

I do worry this setup will become too confusing for newbies

It's a potential consideration, which is why clear presentation and probably a standardized setup discussion are probably going to be part of every mod's opening posts in this setup.

Yeah. Though from a newbie perspective, a long wall post on a discussion of the setup from the mod will probably overwhelm me when everything else seems overwhelming at first.

When I was new, it took me about a game or two to understand matrix 6.

[mhsmith0]

Spoiler= tags are your friend

[Virtuoso]

Yeah...about that....

[Mulch]

Town roleblocker in a micro is potentially super powerful. There is literally NOTHING that scum can do to kill the roleblocker if he picks correctly once game is down to one scum, which makes it the strongest weapon against a scum roleblocker.

Meanwhile, it can directly block the scum kill when it's a goon-goon team

Rolecop is substantially less useful than tracker, because it can ONLY cop PRs, whereas the tracker can see someone delivering the kill AND can still cop the scum PR actively doing something at night AND can get a hard guilty on a scum target visiting two different people (scum PR plus delivering kill).

Town roleblocker as a newbie has equal chance to have negative utility. Hell, from (hundreds?) of turbos in MU I can say that every time I put town roleblocker there is at least a 50% chance they do something bad for town. And this is with good players. Rolecop is 1/2 of a cop for town, which is still arguably better than tracker which in the beginning can only get 1/2 of a cop anyway with the track and even less chance so, AND rolecop can help find town power roles as well to help with town unity.

[Mulch]

1. Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Tracker, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

2. Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Roleblocker, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

3. Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Tracker, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

4. Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Roleblocker, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

5. Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Doctor, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

6. Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Doctor, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

7. Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Rolecop, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

8. Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Rolecop, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

9. Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Doctor, Town Tracker, 5x Town Vanilla

10. Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Doctor, Town Roleblocker, 5x Town Vanilla

11. Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Rolecop, Town Tracker, 5x Town Vanilla

12. Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Rolecop, Town Roleblocker, 5x Town Vanilla

[mhsmith0]

I think the power of a town roleblocker is underrated. Against goons it's nearly a jailkeeper and without the "did I save or stop" wifom. Its NU potential is why it's not in the most powerful group but it CAN carry a town. It's also the #1 strongest counter to a solo scum roleblocker.

That said the rb/rb/jk triangle does need to be resolved in a standardized manner.