The New Newbie Game Setup

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The New Newbie Game Setup

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:14 am

Post by PenguinPower »

Introduction


Discussion on the creation of a new Newbie Game setup began a couple of months ago, building off the Matrix6 BP fix thread. While several modifications to the existing Matrix6 setup were discussed, it was ultimately decided that a new setup could provide some new variety to the Newbie Queue. A little over a month ago, Cabd brought forward a semi-open idea based on dice rolls. While it was a good starting point, like all ideas, it had room to be improved upon. After month of internal feedback and tweaks we have a finished product, and I am presenting it for public comment.

First, I would like to thank Cabd for his work in the creation of the idea, and his active involvement in the development and improvement. This setup would not exist without him. Secondly, I would like to thank mhsmith0, fferyllt, and penguin_alien for their constant feedback on the design, and getting the setup implementation-ready. These four are the inaugural members of the Newbie Discussion Group, and all of their assistance in working to improve the Newbie Queue is greatly appreciated. I also want to thank the staff members who took time to weigh in with their feedback (specifically: mykonian, implosion, T-Bone).

Alright, on to the setup.


Setup Info

This game is run using the newbie setup, 3d3, as inspired by Cabd, and designed by the Newbie Discussion Group.

Die 1Die 2Die 3
Mafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Town
Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town Cop
Town
Town Rolecop
Town Roleblocker
Town Jailkeeper

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates one role from each column (one column for a mafia role, the other two columns from town roles). The remaining six roles will be filled in by
Mafia Goons
and
Vanilla Townies
as appropriate, to create a
2-mafia
and
7-town
setup. For a deeper explanation of how the setup is generated, visit the wiki page here: 3d3

These are the 12 possible setups you will be playing:
Spoiler:
1.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker
vs.
Town Tracker, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

2.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker
vs.
Town Roleblocker, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

3.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker
vs.
Town Tracker, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

4.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker
vs.
Town Roleblocker, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

5.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop
vs.
Town Doctor, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

6.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop
vs.
Town Doctor, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

7.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop
vs.
Town Rolecop, Town Cop, 5x Town Vanilla

8.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop
vs.
Town Rolecop, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla

9.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon
vs.
Town Doctor, Town Tracker, 5x Town Vanilla

10.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon
vs.
Town Doctor, Town Roleblocker, 5x Town Vanilla

11.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon
vs.
Town Rolecop, Town Tracker, 5x Town Vanilla

12.
Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon
vs.
Town Rolecop, Town Roleblocker, 5x Town Vanilla


Setup Specific Rules:

1. Mafia Power Roles may both use their night action and preform the kill.
2. Should a town roleblocker and a mafia roleblocker target each other, all actions preformed by both, including night killing actions, will be stopped.
3. This game always uses Natural Action Resolution to resolve night actions.
4. Roleblocker actions have priority over Jailkeeper actions.
5. The Mafia Private Topic is open at all times, including Day phases.

Sample Role PM's

Spoiler:
Vanilla TownieWelcome!

You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town JailkeeperWelcome!

You are a
Town Jailkeeper
.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills and be prevented from using their own action, if they have one, during that night phase. You cannot target yourself.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town CopWelcome!

You are a
Town Cop
.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed if they are
Town
or
Mafia
. If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town TrackerWelcome!

You are a
Town Tracker
.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed what player they targeted with their action, if any.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town RoleblockerWelcome!

You are a
Town Roleblocker
.

You may target one player per night. This player will be prevented from performing their own action, if any.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town DoctorWelcome!

You are a
Town Doctor
.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills during that night phase. You cannot target yourself.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town RolecopWelcome!

You are a
Town Rolecop.


You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment.
Vanilla Townies
and
Mafia Goons
will both return "Vanilla". If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Mafia GoonWelcome!

You are a
Mafia Goon
.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You also share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Mafia RolecopWelcome!

You are a
Mafia Rolecop
.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment.
Vanilla Townies
and
Mafia Goons
will both return "Vanilla". If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a roleblock in the same night phase. You also share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.
Mafia RoleblockerWelcome!

You are a
Mafia Roleblocker
.

You may target one player per night. This player will be prevented from performing their own action, if any.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a roleblock in the same night phase. You also share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.





Conclusion


Here's your opportunity to view the setup and provide your feedback. Please keep all feedback constructive and on topic. If you just want to gripe about something related to the setup, feel free to shoot me a PM directly.


Following the modification, finalization, and implementation of the new setup, the Newbie Discussion Group will be moving on to focus on the review and development of the Being a good IC guidelines, and the design of a formalized IC Reviewer role/IC review process. If anyone is interesting in joining the group, please shoot me a PM with answers to the following:

What experience do you have playing Newbie games?
What is your understanding of the role of an IC?
What changes would you make to the current IC/SE structure?
What areas for improvement do you see with the Newbie Queue?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:30 am

Post by Virtuoso »

I am super excited for this development!
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:50 am

Post by Creature »

I can't understand this setup correctly. Do you mean that roles should come from different columns?
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:54 am

Post by Cabd »

In post 2, Creature wrote:I can't understand this setup correctly. Do you mean that roles should come from different columns?
Correct. One of the three columns is chosen with a d3. Take the RED mafia role from the column. Then select one of the two GREEN town roles from each of the other two columns chosen randomly.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:56 am

Post by Cabd »

So let's say your 3d3 roll is "1,2,3"


That means "column one is the mafia column" so you have a Mafia Roleblocker. Then for town, we get 2 and 3, making Column Two become Town Tracker, and Column Three become Town Jailkeeper. The setup is therefore:

3. Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Tracker, Town Jailkeeper, 5x Town Vanilla


In practice, though, you can just use a single

Code: Select all

[dice]1d12[/dice]
to pick the setup.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:58 am

Post by Creature »

a "1" result on the second or third die is re-rolled.

For example, if the die came up as "3,1,2" the setup would become 2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Doctor, Town Roleblocker, 5x Town Vanilla

From wiki
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:04 am

Post by Virtuoso »

I think day talk is a good feature. Day talk is becoming more standard on mafiascum and newbie scum are going to have a difficult time without it.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:05 am

Post by Cabd »

In post 0, PenguinPower wrote:5. The Mafia Private Topic is open at all times, including Day phases.
this was a requirement before the setup was even built, in my mind.

Newbie CONVERSION rate goes up with daytalk, imo
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:06 am

Post by Virtuoso »

In post 7, Cabd wrote:Newbie CONVERSION rate goes up with daytalk, imo
Totally agree!

It was long overdue to give scum day talk IMO.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:16 am

Post by Creature »

I guess a least confusing table would be this:
Number 1Number 2Number 3
First dieMafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3
Second dieTown
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Third dieTown
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker

* = Number 1s other than first die are rerolled
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:20 am

Post by Virtuoso »

Creature's table makes a lot more sense.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:30 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Setup 4 id horrible for town
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:37 am

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 9, Creature wrote:I guess a least confusing table would be this:
Number 1Number 2Number 3
First dieMafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3
Second dieTown
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Town Doctor
Town Rolecop
Third dieTown
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper
Town Tracker
Town Roleblocker

* = Number 1s other than first die are rerolled
I like this. Will be easy to swap in.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:46 am

Post by Virtuoso »

In post 11, RadiantCowbells wrote:Setup 4 id horrible for town
Agreed
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:48 am

Post by Virtuoso »

One other thing I noticed is scum doesn't have any safe fake PR claims. If scum knows they're in row 1, they can fake BP and if they know they're in column B they can fake claim doctor.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:49 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

I like it. It reduces the specificity of informedness mafia can have (4 possible setups in all three cases instead of 2 in one and 4 in another).
PEdit: That makes it more risky I guess.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:52 am

Post by Cabd »

In post 14, Virtuoso wrote:One other thing I noticed is scum doesn't have any safe fake PR claims. If scum knows they're in row 1, they can fake BP and if they know they're in column B they can fake claim doctor.
What?

Mafia knows which die they're in and can safely fakeclaim anything else on that die; without being CC'd.

Mafia on die one can safeclaim doctor or rolecop.
Mafia on die two can safeclaim tracker or roleblocker.
Mafia on die three can safeclaim cop or jailkeeper.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:54 am

Post by Virtuoso »

Thanks. Didn't notice that. @Cabd.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:29 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 13, Virtuoso wrote:
In post 11, RadiantCowbells wrote:Setup 4 id horrible for town
Agreed
I tend to disagree. You're basically dealing with a situation where, if scum die on either d1 or d2, the town roleblocker becomes ridiculously powerful since it can cancel out the scum kill, even if the remaining scum is the roleblocker.

I'd agree that it nerfs the jailkeeper pretty decently, but you're talking about two town blocking roles in a micro, and it's probably the #1 most "this game is just OVER if scum PR is lynched day 1" setup.

If you compare this to, say, jailkeeper/bp/scum roleblocker, this has materially more kill stopping power on town's end, and both of town's PRs can potentially be useful. Of course, the two town PRs could hit each other on a given night, but if they don't target each other, you're basically talking about blanketing the board with town-aligned blocking power, which is a really big deal. It's also probably one of the bigger "day 1 mass claim doesn't kill you" outcomes, as if the two PRs are declared and known, they won't target each other, and you're gonna get two shots at blocking a kill n1 even given a VT lynch.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:15 pm

Post by Virtuoso »

When will this take effect and when will this new setup officially be live?
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:23 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

Right now, the setup is open for public comment. My hope is that the new setup will be implemented within the next week or two.

Depending on the comments that could change or not.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:25 pm

Post by Virtuoso »

Do you want to run a few test games in the micro queue before this goes official?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:29 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

Not particularly. Games with all experienced MS players are not an equivalent for games with new/er MS players. And a few games is not a good sample size.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:36 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

My setup notes, fwiw:

So we have 12 potential setups...

Roleblocker vs

Tracker and Cop - make no mistake, this town is STRONG power-wise. Tracker is basically a PR cop AND can see the night kill, so if it sees scum doing anything the same night cop dies, easy guilty. If scum don't at least roleblock one of cop/tracker by n1, town can potentially just win it outright via night actions, or at the least have a pretty condensed POE.

Roleblocker and Cop - this is again a strong amount of town power, but here it's contradictory and doesn't work great together. Cop now has THREE different potential sources of nerfage: town roleblocker, scum roleblocker, and scum kill. OTOH, a day 1 scum lynch very nearly locks the game (even if it's a goon), as d2 the town roleblocker can claim. Basically it should be reasonably balanced but highly swingy on when the first scum death is. You can also just about lock the game up with a scum roleblocker d1 lynch.

Tracker and Jailkeeper - probably the friendliest combination for scum out of the four; rolecop only really targets roleblocker, and jailkeeper can be blocked as long as roleblocker is alive. Jailkeeper CAN potentially save a kill, but roleblocker > jailkeeper makes this a not terrible challenge for scum barring an early roleblocker lynch.

Roleblocker and Jailkeeper - this one is almost my favorite potential combination of the whole thing. A massive pileup of role interactions that makes it really difficult to figure out what happened the previous night, but at the same time can have pretty reasonable likelihood of stopping a kill. Also a d1 scum lynch just annihilates the scum team unless they shoot the roleblocker exactly on n1.

Rolecop vs

Doctor and Cop - more townsided than the old cop/doc/rb combo, but scum get daytalk as a compromise position. IMO pretty decent odds that this will be the #1 townsided setup out of the 12 over the long haul

Doctor and Jailkeeper - no real investigative power for town, but extremely decent odds of saving multiple kills. Also just an absolute crusher on scum after the first scum lynch if the jailkeeper is alive.

Rolecop and Cop – Rolecop basically just a PR hunter, which seems fine as the secondary investigative when scum has power too.

Rolecop and Jailkeeper - probably the most scum-friendly of the four setups. Jailkeeper can block town rolecop as easily as scum rolecop, though at the same time the jailkeeper can just kind of run the field after the first scum lynch.

Goons vs

Doctor and Tracker – experience has shown this to be on the scumsided of semi-open setups, but not horrifyingly so

Doctor and Roleblocker - pretty interesting as a setup. Decent odds of multiple killstopping, and doc can protect the town roleblocker if claimed. Like basically every setup with a town roleblocker, it potentially becomes a town stomp after the first scum lynch.

Rolecop and Tracker - reasonably ok with town getting a role that isn't terrible as an investigative (tracker), and a role that can find the tracker and potentially pick up a fake claim.

Rolecop and Roleblocker - probably weaker for town than doc/rb here, but roleblocker is still strong when scum have no counters, and tracker can still get guilties. Gut says that this is the setup of the 12 that scum do the best on over the long term.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:37 pm

Post by Virtuoso »

In post 20, PenguinPower wrote:Right now, the setup is open for public comment. My hope is that the new setup will be implemented within the next week or two.

Depending on the comments that could change or not.
Fair enough. I'd still like to mod a game to get a feel for the new setup.
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