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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:52 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 199, RadiantCowbells wrote:Also I think that it's less content and amount of it you produce and more that you're resistant to town getting set in its ways and you stubbornly bring up whatever direction you're currently in. And yeah that gets you mislynched but I think it helps prevent town from getting complacent which is one of the big killers of towns imo. Being rarely NKed wouldn't hurt you either.
I think "being resistant to Town getting set in its ways and challenging the status quo" and content are not mutually exclusive. Take a look at your own game. Why do you think you have the record that you do? Are you a great Scumhunter, do you have great reads, can you push a lynch, do you have charisma, do you get lynched a lot as either alignment? More precisely, do you feel you add things to the game that if you were not in the game would get overlooked?
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:12 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I don't think they are mutually exclusive: but I think that the specifically status quo upsetting way that you tend to play is more important than the content that you provide.
I think in a large part we can be thinking of the same thing but posting it differently because obviously when you post something new that goes against town that's posting content.
But there's a lot of people that post content who sort of follow the grain of the game in a bad way.

I mean I can say a lot about why I think that I'm good but I'm not sure who that benefits here.

The people who think that I'm bad and that my playstyle is an affront to mafia as a game already know the general gist and still feel that way. The fact that I get lynched virtually never as town despite being one of the most paranoia inducing scum players, the fact that I can near 100% of the time lynch exactly who I want to lynch no matter their status in town, the fact that I super consistently read a lot of lynchbaity players that others can't all help, but I think that the people who think I'm good already know that and the people who don't won't care.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:16 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 201, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think they are mutually exclusive: but I think that the specifically status quo upsetting way that you tend to play is more important than the content that you provide.
I think in a large part we can be thinking of the same thing but posting it differently because obviously when you post something new that goes against town that's posting content.
But there's a lot of people that post content who sort of follow the grain of the game in a bad way.

I mean I can say a lot about why I think that I'm good but I'm not sure who that benefits here.
Obviously, I am not looking for a brag list. I am looking for what the essence or dominant characteristic is for the reason that people succeed as Town.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:23 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:28 pm

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n0 rc :P
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:20 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 203, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.
You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:02 am

Post by Ectomancer »

In post 205, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 203, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.
You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.
Scum can bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there as well. What makes a good town player is bringing content and then explaining that content and having it correlate to town motivations. I don't mean meta town motivations. I mean town motivation particular to that game.
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:20 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 206, Ectomancer wrote:
In post 205, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 203, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.
You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.
Scum can bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there as well. What makes a good town player is bringing content and then explaining that content and having it correlate to town motivations. I don't mean meta town motivations. I mean town motivation particular to that game.
No offence, but I prolly am not going to take much of what you say seriously because of your sig.
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:40 pm

Post by Ectomancer »

In post 207, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 206, Ectomancer wrote:
In post 205, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 203, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.
You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.
Scum can bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there as well. What makes a good town player is bringing content and then explaining that content and having it correlate to town motivations. I don't mean meta town motivations. I mean town motivation particular to that game.
No offence, but I prolly am not going to take much of what you say seriously because of your sig.
Well if you don't also possess a degree in bullshit in order to determine whether I am serious or not, I completely understand your position. Of course you could be referring to ASSLUST but we all have our unsupported statements don't we? :D
I have a degree in bullshit. I have patents on entire lines of bullshit. So don't sit here and feed me a line of bullshit and think that I'm not going to recognize it as one.

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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:50 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 208, Ectomancer wrote:
In post 207, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 206, Ectomancer wrote:
In post 205, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 203, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.
You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.
Scum can bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there as well. What makes a good town player is bringing content and then explaining that content and having it correlate to town motivations. I don't mean meta town motivations. I mean town motivation particular to that game.
No offence, but I prolly am not going to take much of what you say seriously because of your sig.
Well if you don't also possess a degree in bullshit in order to determine whether I am serious or not, I completely understand your position. Of course you could be referring to ASSLUST but we all have our unsupported statements don't we? :D
I wasn't keyed into the buzzwords people are using these days so I didn't even notice that. Apologies.
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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:01 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

It occurs to me that getting a single TR correct is very well 1/12, but this is compounded the more reads you make. So if you make a readslist of everyone and get like 2/3 correct, you are actually doing pretty good.
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:02 am

Post by vonflare »

In post 210, LicketyQuickety wrote:It occurs to me that getting a single TR correct is very well 1/12
it's 9/12
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:09 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 211, vonflare wrote:
In post 210, LicketyQuickety wrote:It occurs to me that getting a single TR correct is very well 1/12
it's 9/12
Whatever. what I meant is that the chance compounds and gets smaller the more guesses you make.
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:30 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

you realize 2/3 right on a readslist for everyone isn't necessarily good right

for 12 player with 9/3 distribution and assuming you assign everyone T or S, the possibilites are then that you're right on 1 and wrong on 2 (if declaring 3 scum), that you have all the scum on your 'scumlist' but you're calling 7 people scum, that you have 2 scum right out of a list of 5 and have the last one as town, or you have 1 scumread and it's wrong.
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:39 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

1 and 4 are just bad.
2 usually comes in practice as a decent PoE and not as I "think these 7 ppl are scum because they're scummy."
Same with 3 except its less conservative and has the hard misread.
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:43 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 213, Ellibereth wrote:you realize 2/3 right on a readslist for everyone isn't necessarily good right

for 12 player with 9/3 distribution and assuming you assign everyone T or S, the possibilites are then that you're right on 1 and wrong on 2 (if declaring 3 scum), that you have all the scum on your 'scumlist' but you're calling 7 people scum, that you have 2 scum right out of a list of 5 and have the last one as town, or you have 1 scumread and it's wrong.
Right, but is it bad? If every Town member get's 2/3 wrong, what are Town's chances of winning if they all decide to lynch the people they agree are Scum?
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:27 am

Post by Mathdino »

Scum input and manipulation of gamestate means the lynch is not determined by whoever town agrees is scum.

Plus I assume it would be approximately equivalent to random lynch statistics.
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:41 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 216, Mathdino wrote:Scum input and manipulation of gamestate means the lynch is not determined by whoever town agrees is scum.

Plus I assume it would be approximately equivalent to random lynch statistics.
How manipulative Scum is is dependent on how well Scum actually play. When we are talking about static variables, there isn't really room for random variables.
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:16 am

Post by Ellibereth »

In post 215, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 213, Ellibereth wrote:you realize 2/3 right on a readslist for everyone isn't necessarily good right

for 12 player with 9/3 distribution and assuming you assign everyone T or S, the possibilites are then that you're right on 1 and wrong on 2 (if declaring 3 scum), that you have all the scum on your 'scumlist' but you're calling 7 people scum, that you have 2 scum right out of a list of 5 and have the last one as town, or you have 1 scumread and it's wrong.
Right, but is it bad? If every Town member get's 2/3 wrong, what are Town's chances of winning if they all decide to lynch the people they agree are Scum?
it's going to be a mislynch because if there's an intersection (which isn't that likely), it's on the 1 person that's being scumread incorrectly in case 4.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:47 am

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In post 203, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.
Deep. I do agree with the whole post by the way. I am still only starting to understand myself.
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:43 am

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I'm just tried of thread spam. Like, no one will ever replace into a D2 150+ page game. Spamming the thread is demonstrably anti-town yet it seems to be the definition of new site meta. I miss '07 =(
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:59 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 220, Sephiroth wrote:I'm just tried of thread spam. Like, no one will ever replace into a D2 150+ page game. Spamming the thread is demonstrably anti-town yet it seems to be the definition of new site meta. I miss '07 =(
I think this is definitely something mods can take steps to deal with without straight up post restricting people (i.e. Geriatric ruleset).

There's a pretty good argument for a duck argument for spam. If it looks like spam, you'll know it when you see it.

As long as mods enforce this regardless of alignment (which has the side effect of restricting "tactical" spam whenever it might be useful), I think it can be dealt with.
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:00 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

hey oh boy do I have a thread for you.
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:01 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 200, LicketyQuickety wrote: challenging the status quo
Frankly how dare you.
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:02 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 220, Sephiroth wrote:I'm just tried of thread spam. Like, no one will ever replace into a D2 150+ page game. Spamming the thread is demonstrably anti-town yet it seems to be the definition of new site meta. I miss '07 =(
its funny because the argument all the hyper posters make is that more posting equals higher town win rates despite the fact that town win rates are garbage rn compared to other times in the sites history.

mostly because most of the people who espouse this style are bad rather than the style itself, but the style certainly doesn't help the ones who aren't.
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