Geriatric Ruleset Discussion Thread

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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:29 pm

Post by Creature »

In post 123, Mathdino wrote:
In post 122, Creature wrote:I can see geriatric working if the mod selectively chooses inned players they think will make the game enjoyable.
there are a lot of players that you think will make the game enjoyable who come back after a couple years

and everyone's like holy shit [x] is back, this is gonna be TIGHT

and more people join the game in anticipation

and then they all flake/lurk/don't put their heart in it, because they remember that they didn't quit mafia because of spamposters

they quit mafia because they found better things to do with their time.
or maybe just be more stricter on WOTM and let anyone else join.
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:30 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

People largely quit the site because it stopped being what it was for them. They blame spamposters and that's possibly a part of it absolutely but it's a lot more meaningful than that.
It encompasses lots of changes in personal life as well as shifts in the meta, the players, the rules, so many things that have changed and people come back and feel alien to the game.

I've only been here 5 years and I have played a significant portion of that but I often feel like a complete outsider in games, stuck trying to bridge the gap between what was and what is.
And I'm fine with that. There was a post in the GOAT thread about how you can't cross that bridge again and I empathize with that a lot: I'm sure with some introspection a lot of people would.

I personally think a huge value of the Geriatric games is the potential to get enough older players to play again with the people they remember that they might find themselves in the game again.
I fundamentally disagree. More people devoting more resources to doing well is more likely to make something thrive. If anything creating an economy in this game would be a good thing.

And I also think it would be very difficult to get said example banned - it's no different than a team of seconds helping someone/each other prepare for anything.
I think that you see things in a world of technicalities that most people would not see.
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:32 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

This isn't a world of technicalities - you're saying that getting or hiring people to help you get better at something is something that's obviously bannable when if anything it should be encouraged.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:35 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

You keep dragging things back to general cases without focusing on examining the specific effects that these things have on forum mafia itself.
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:36 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

I mean it'll obviously majorly change how forum mafia exists as an entity.

You think for the worse, I think for the better.
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:37 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Anyway. This isn't the topic for this discussion and it's probably not the time for it either.
I mean it'll obviously majorly change how forum mafia exists as an entity.

You think for the worse, I think for the better.
That major change is not something that I think that anyone wants.
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:38 pm

Post by Mathdino »

I disagree that putting the majority of town power in the hands of the few will majorly change mafia for the better

If I was on track to winning a game solely by sheeping your reads, ellibereth, I think I would just replace out

It's not the same game
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:40 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

The major change would be the eventual potential for a "professional" form of this game to exist one day, sure the rules and structures might be different, but if you think the status quo is a good one for the future then we also fundamentally disagree so.
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:42 pm

Post by Mathdino »

The current not good status quo is fundamentally linked to the decline of forums and MSs inability to keep up imo
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:43 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I think that the amount of lost interest in mafia from the development of the game in the form that you want would kill any hope of the game being taken seriously professionally.

Why MS isn't moving forward is something I have a lot of personal thoughts on but I'll keep them to myself here.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:43 pm

Post by Creature »

So basically Geriatric is sorta an open invitational.
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:43 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

I mean I think it's linked to a lot of stuff, but you know I'm working on it myself so. :P

This whole convo has probably run it's course, let's say something about geriatric games.
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:44 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

In post 134, RadiantCowbells wrote:I think that the amount of lost interest in mafia from the development of the game in the form that you want would kill any hope of the game being taken seriously professionally.

Why MS isn't moving forward is something I have a lot of personal thoughts on but I'll keep them to myself here.
The only thing I can say is we shall see!
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:44 pm

Post by Creature »

Site meta is like much more complex than number of posts per player.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:50 pm

Post by Mathdino »

i should note that there are a few players that i would consider the "perfect-world" geriatric player

Kmd4390 is a major example

to summarise:

- due to real life, he literally can't keep up with too much posting since it takes that much longer to read the game

- despite real life, he still checks in whenever he can and puts thought/effort into his play

- he never replaces out or lurks out, and there's never the sense that he's dead weight

appealing to players like Kmd is the stated goal of the geriatric ruleset, and i think that goal is a noble one

the problem is that in reality, it appeals to players who shouldn't really be playing mafia anymore anyway

there aren't many players like kmd and there certainly aren't enough kmds to fill a geriatric game
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:52 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

I mean rather than 'shouldn't be playing mafia anymore' I think the demographic is still too mixed.

If there's a set of players who can literally only play on weekends, there's nothing wrong with that if every player just comes on and posts once or twice a week. The problem is when that set is mixed with people who can post once or twice a day and then etc.etc.
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:54 pm

Post by AnonymousGhost »

^ - This.

Even though I consider myself a "spam poster", I consider Geriatric games to be the best fit for me right now because of my ever changing and busy schedule.

If I go away for 24 hours, I can count on the fact that a geriatric game won't have 15+ pages when I get back home and instead might have a manageable 5~ pages.
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:57 pm

Post by Mathdino »

i would consider AGhost to be another Kmd

what i mean by "shouldn't be playing mafia anymore" is "their heart isn't really in the game of mafia and they think that getting rid of the newfangled spamposters will make mafia what it once was to them"

or they think that geriatric games will be easier

AGhost and Kmd are some of the highest effort players i've ever seen despite the fact that they're less active/online than average
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:09 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

If Melee can be serious, so can Mafia.
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:10 pm

Post by AnonymousGhost »

"Basic psychology" of writing: if it looks intimidating, then the chances are the reader will say 'nah' and not read it or skim over it.

That's a part of the reason why I adjusted my posting style from WALLS WALLS WALLS to short, sweet, and straight to the point.

If you take a look at the Geriatric Grey Flag game, there's a lot of walls. And that's fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. If a player wants to play that way, by all means, let them do so.

Another perk of Geriatric games is that wall posters don't have to worry about being pedited 10+ times because of the posting limit. Geriatric allows for a wider range of posting styles to "co-exist" side by side because it's set at a slower pace.

At least, in theory.
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:35 pm

Post by AnonymousGhost »

In post 623, AnonymousGhost wrote:On the other hand, people should be able to recognize their limitations before signing up for a game, regardless if it's Geriatric or not. It's only fair to the others players and the Mod of the game. It's almost like making sure to read the rules before you play. You should do it to ensure that everyone has the best quality game.
Also this. This is very important.

Not just to Geriatric games, but all games in general.

But maybe just a little bit more to Geriatric in order to counter the perception that a certain types of meta that involve posting only after a prod should be issued are acceptable.
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:39 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

In post 79, RadiantCowbells wrote:Actually I should be clear on that: I think that the problem with MD isn't what is there but what isn't.
I actually agree with RC on this. Of course, I dislike playing scum, so I'm fine with the idea of people hurting their own scum game to help town's be better towns, to improve the overall health of Mafia Scum. This way, it forces you to have to improve or mix up your scum game even further. Or at least, have a small group or team and confide your secrets with them and them only.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:49 pm

Post by Alisae »

Most MD posts are about townplay and not wolfplay
There should be more about wolfplay
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:52 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I ought to have talked more about wolfplay like 8 months ago.

I think my understanding of wolf play is still as high as it's ever been but I don't think it would be taken very seriously rn because my views are so unorthodox.
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:02 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 147, Alisae wrote:Most MD posts are about townplay and not wolfplay
There should be more about wolfplay
most people play badly as town
most people rand town more often than wolf

i wouldn't mind seeing a bit more on good wolfplay, but I'm not surprised at all that the focus is more on stuff you need to know as town given the typical state of townplay
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