Geriatric Ruleset Discussion Thread

[AnonymousGhost]

The current meta is very vulnerable to prod dodging lurking.

More discussion. Trying to avoid clogging up the other thread.

Do you think the quoted statement has merit?

If it has merit, how could we fix the current meta?

[Mathdino]

That is not a thing I actually said but it does seem like a thing I agree with

Solution: decrease the stigma against actually policy lynching people

Day 1s don't need to be as chaotic or long as they are

Years ago people would just realise someone is being hilariously anti town and just speedlynch them, d1 over in 10 pages

Geriatric ruleset combined with current site meta won't bring back The Olden Days unless people are willing to play like The Olden Days

[AnonymousGhost]

What happens if the anti-town player is a town Doctor? Do you PL them to advance day play or suffer a decrease in day play for the chance that night play is improved? You've obviously "taught" them to stop their bad behavior, if your PL goes through. Whether or not they stop their behavior is up to them.

Since MS emphasizes Day play over Night play, I'm surprised that more people aren't willing to lynch an anti town PR that's showing no intentions of fixing their play style.

Something I learned from modding; you should have some type of mechanism that punish the town if they don't lynch. Somewhat similarly, if you advocate to PL someone for shit play and it's within the realms of cite meta, then there's your punishment. No mechanic needed. People learn that if they play like shit, town won't put up with their shit.

Interesting... Should pushing a policy lynch be NAI? Should joining a policy lynch be AI? Probably not. IMO it's probably a circumstances thing, more than a blanket statement thing.

So, I guess the question is; how do you decrease the stigma that is associated with PLing someone?

[Mathdino]

#goodposting

What happens if the anti-town player is a town Doctor? Do you PL them to advance day play or suffer a decrease in day play for the chance that night play is improved? You've obviously "taught" them to stop their bad behavior, if your PL goes through. Whether or not they stop their behavior is up to them.

I mean, ideally they'd stop being anti-town before being run up. It's rare that policy lynches actually go through. But policyvoting and policypressure are totally valid reasons to push people I think.

Since MS emphasizes Day play over Night play, I'm surprised that more people aren't willing to lynch an anti town PR that's showing no intentions of fixing their play style.

Before I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Policy Lynch, I tried to frame anti-town lynches as "utility" lynches. That is, their death has town utility, and if they have a certain likelihood of being scum (say even half of the random chance), their flip has a fair chance of being useful.

There's 0 town utility in lynching a confirmed townie though. If someone claims Doctor in an open, or otherwise becomes confirmed town, even if they're complete dead weight, lynching them doesn't help town at all. I can think of super extreme circumstances where someone could have a TON of anti-town utility even as confirmed town (such as a vig promising to shoot obvtown) and THAT might be deserving of policy lynching, but I don't think anyone's gone that far.

Policy lynches are about making a statement.

Something I learned from modding; you should have some type of mechanism that punish the town if they don't lynch. Somewhat similarly, if you advocate to PL someone for shit play and it's within the realms of cite meta, then there's your punishment. No mechanic needed. People learn that if they play like shit, town won't put up with their shit.

There already is that mechanic. It's called "town is at a disadvantage when there are even numbers". That said, I think MS and MU are really the only place that realise that.

Interesting... Should pushing a policy lynch be NAI? Should joining a policy lynch be AI? Probably not. IMO it's probably a circumstances thing, more than a blanket statement thing.

So, I guess the question is; how do you decrease the stigma that is associated with PLing someone?

I don't believe in prescriptive vs descriptive scumhunting. It's not a case of whether policy lynching SHOULD be AI. If you want to talk about scumhunting theory, it's a case of whether it is or it isn't. That depends on the player. I've pushed a policy vote on someone in almost every game I've ever been in since hiatus, and won a nightless micro by just policy lynching my buddy off the bat. It's NAI to the extent that scum can do pro-town things or things that their townselves would do for towncred.

However, what I've seen a lot of is people basically pushing for counter policy lynches on the people proposing the policy lynches in the first place, sometimes justifying it with "only scum policy lynch" (something that's evidently not true). THAT's probably a thing they should stop doing, unless the player advocating policy lynches is basically doing nothing else pro-town. But it goes without saying that policy lynching shouldn't replace scumhunting.

You decrease the stigma by arguing for it and sticking to your guns I think, up until better lynches present themselves. I rarely ACTUALLY end up policy lynching players, and have lynched actual scum more often than random.

As long as the message is sent and received though, that's the important bit to changing site meta.

[mastina]

Quoting the relevant parts from my post in the other thread:

The current meta is very vulnerable to prod dodging lurking.

An easy solution to this is to have a rule preventing prod dodges from resetting the prod meter. A game being geriatric should be no excuse to go (over) two/three days without posting (content). Geriatric games don't need to require you to post literally every day, but they do require you to actually post at a reasonable rate.

If you [don't] post every day, [that's] okay. But only [posting] as infrequently as you [can] get away with...[hurts games]. You need to post (content) to win. Geriatric games just afford a more "reasonable" posting rate.

Slightly modified to get the intended message across fairly succinctly--
A rule preventing prod dodges from resetting the prod meter forces content to exist every 2-3 days, forcing a reasonable content generation rate.

[AnonymousGhost]

Interesting.

Can you give me an example of how that'd work?

[mastina]

Interesting. Can you give me an example of how that'd work?

This is a fairly common rule in rulesets already, so yes. Just prod players who post "prod dodge" or the like, explaining, "Your post was not game content, and thus does not reset your prod timer".

It is up to the moderators how strict they are with this rule. I have it as an implied rule (I say "no loophole abuse" in my rules, and I consider prod dodges to qualify as an attempt at abusing a loophole in the rules) in my games, so I have been making widespread usage of it.

For instance--PERSONALLY, I do offer some amount of leniency if a player states why they haven't posted and gives a timeframe for when they will post content (as a kind of unofficial statement of "I'm V/LA"), but I have seen other mods who have "no prod dodging" rules deliver a prod to me when I have done exactly that in a game, and that was their personal modding preference. I see nothing wrong with having an individual mod's specific interpretation differ slightly, but it's generally not hard to separate 'game content' from 'not game content'.

A vote, even naked, is game content; a "I've been a bit busy, but I still think X is scummy" is game content even if they have said many times "I still think X is scummy"; quoting a game content post is something which I'd say qualifies as game content even if the quote is naked (as it is reemphasizing the quoted post); saying how good your day has been (or more commonly, the opposite) doesn't really constitute game content; posting an image/youtube video which is entirely unrelated to the game doesn't really constitute game content (with the caveat that if the image/youtube video is posted in response to something and makes sense in context of the game it probably was meant as game content and should be treated as such); etc.

Yes, this is a bit subjective. Yes, it does rely on moderator discretion. Yes, it will thus not be universal. But while a moderator's exact interpretation may differ, the general outline is easy enough to follow and understand. Post CONTENT every 2/3 days. Otherwise, you get prodded.

[mhsmith0]

Standard smith rule (ripped off from plot fwiw):

A naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. To avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; xxxx is still scum."

Basic rule of thumb is that if your post could be duplicated word for word in any other game thread thread (that you're alive in, anyawy) and be exactly as relevant/appropriate (i.e. regardless of how many other players there are, whether it's early or late game, who else is in the game, etc etc etc), it's probably a prodge even if it's a wordy or only subtle prodge.

[callforjudgement]

Simple "I've been prodded, I'll post later" posts don't stop the prod timer, because players have a habit of making them and then not posting. A prod response post must: a) express at least one read on a living player; b) ask a question of a player; and/or c) answer a question asked by another player, in order to count.

That should do if you want an objective anti-prod-dodging rule.

(I've been running almost exclusively Micros and Tinies recently, which often have a problem with very low activity due to the smaller player count. So I've taken to using very aggressive prodding schemes, typically with short prod timers but allowing more prods before a replacement.)

[AnonymousGhost]

revive the topic of "is geriatric townsided or scumsided, and why?"

Well, so far it's been established that a.) the current meta is very vulnerable to prod dodging and lurking. (Curtesy of T-Bone! )

And it's also been "established" - let's say - that b.) a geriatric game shouldn't be an excuse to go two to three days or more without posting. (Curtesy of mastina! )

The "purpose" of Geriatric games is to let people post at a reasonable rate, without getting swamped by pages and pages and pages of multi posts made by other players. But this doesn't excuse a player from going without posting for more than the prod setting allows, since they technically "shouldn't" have an "excuse" to flake out i.e. the pages and pages and pages of posts made by other players.

However, with only a sample size of three, the only "real" conclusions we can some to right now include:

i.) The current meta is not suitable for past modding meta (Curtesy of Mastina!)
ii.) Towns cannot pull a victory if they are not active (TBF... this applies to both Geriatric and Non-Geriatric games)
iii.) Towns can pull a victory if they are active (Again... pretty obvious & this applies to both Geriatric and Non-Geriatric)
iv.) More DATA!

Shameless plug...

FWIW I do plan on hosting a Geriatric Large theme during the summer, but I've made a modification to the ruleset regarding prods. Specifically, the number of prods players are allowed to have before I replace them. I'm also going to be adopting Plotinus's Get A Room mechanic into the game as well.

So, discuss how a reduced # of prods (i.e. only allowed two prods instead of three) could affect the geriatric ruleset and/or current meta!

Transporting to other thread.

[AnonymousGhost]

Boop.

Geriatric Games - Wins and Losses

Micro 778: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless - Town Loss/Mafia Victory

Mirco 765: Chill Mafia - Town Victory/Mafia Loss

Just Play the Hits - Town Loss/Serial Killer Loss/Mafia Victory

Instead of tracking wins/losses (like lol who cares?), we should be tracking if geriatric games have more/less overall instances of flaking and whether they encourage a greater diversity of players.

[AnonymousGhost]

Micro 778: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless

# of Replacements: 5
# of Replacements that should've happened: 8

Replacements Per Slot + Alignment Tracking:

• Hopkirk replaces CultofAthena
  
  
• The Golden Paradox replaces RayFrost
  
  
• Titus replaces BlackVoid; BlackVoid replaces A Simple Plan; A Simple Plan replaces Luca Blight

# of Prods in chronological order: 19 (

Luca Blight

,

A Simple Plan

,

Korts

,

xRECKONERx

,

BlackVoid

) - (Last slot should've received a total of 14 prods)

Micro 765: Chill Mafia

# of Replacements: 2

Replacements Per Slot + Alignment Tracking:

• MathDino replaces sheepsaymeep
  
  
• UC Voyager replaces GinghamDog

# of Prods: 0

Just Play the Hits

# of Replacements: 3

Replacements Per Slot + Alignment Tracking:

• Kublai Khan replaces Godel
  
  
• Chara replaces Assemblerotws
  
  
• Titus replaces SleepyKrew

# of Prods in chronological order: 13 (

Assemblerotws

,

Napoleon III

,

Assemblerotws

,

Vaxkiller

,

Godel

,

Napoleon III

,

hebichan

,

Assemblerotws

,

pirate mollie

,

Varsoon

,

Sir Elton Hercules John

,

Espeonage

,

Chara

)

# of Force Replacements: 2 (

Godel

,

Assemblerotws

)

# of Mass Prods: 1 (Day 3)

[Flubbernugget]

How does this compare to non geriatrics?

[AnonymousGhost]

That I have no clue. As of this moment.

I suppose that you'd have to factor in where your "control" group - is that even the right term for something like this? - is coming from i.e. Newbie, Open, Normal, Micro Queue, etc. and how drawing from certain queues could affect prods/replacements in general. Newbie games might have a greater need for replacements/prods due to newbies site flaking and therefore might not be a good comparison to Geriatric Games for example.

As of this moment, I have no idea how to track whether or not Geriatric encourages a greater diversity of players/play styles since I'm not familiar enough with the play styles of the players - except probably Chill Mafia where I could take an "educated" guess since I have played with a couple of people from CM - from earlier years than my join date.

[AnonymousGhost]

Open Queue
Sample Size = 6

Open 711: Stack the Deck

# of Replacements: 3

• Sky_Paladin replaces TheYankeeReaper
  
  
• JaydragonKing replaces Creature
  
  
• northsidegal replaces Elmo TeH AzN

# of Prods: 5

• TheYankeeReaper
  
  
• Creature
  
  
• Montosh
  
  
• Elmo TeH AzN
  
  
• UnaBombaH

Open 714: Tit for Tat

# of Replacements: 1

• mutantdevle replaces marshy

# of Prods: 1

• northsidegal

Open 713: Jungle Republic

# of Replacements: 2

• Almost50 replaces BuJaber
  
  
• Tchill13 replaces Korina

# of Prods: 7

• Unavailable/Not Recorded by Mod

Open 710: MK Ultra

# of Replacements: 5

• Alisae replaces Mikan Tsumiki
  ,
  Mikan Tsumiki replaces Technical Difficulties
  
  
• springlullaby replaces Mumble
  
  
• Aneninen replaces Hawk
  
  
• Firebringer replaces Sesq

# of Prods: 6

• Kop
  
  
• Kop
  
  
• Not_Mafia
  
  
• Sky_Paladin
  
  
• GuyInFreezer
  
  
• Iconeum

Open 708: Pick Your Power

# of Replacements: 2

• Transcend replaces PenguinPower
  
  
• RadiantCowbells replaces Bellaphant

# of Prods: 10

• PenguinPower
  
  
• CultOfAthena
  
  
• Errantparabola
  
  
• texcat
  
  
• CultOfAthena
  
  
• Errantparabola
  
  
• Klick
  
  
• mozamis
  
  
• Flubbernugget
  
  
• Maxous

Open 707: JK9++

# of Replacements: 4

• sheepsaysmeep replaces BigFinn
  
  
• Srceenplay replaces Assemblerotws
  
  
• Gamma Emerald replaces AnonymousGhost; AnonymousGhost replaces RedFlavor

# of Prods: 7

• Assemblerotws
  
  
• BigFinn
  
  
• Hawk
  
  
• Kop
  
  
• Assemblerotws
  
  
• Assemblerotws
  
  
• havingfitz

[Mathdino]

Yet another geriatric town lost due to lurkers and out of practice towns
How many would you consider a trend

[Lycanfire]

geriatrics should get a cop head start to better align them with more skilled mafia communities

[AnonymousGhost]

Open 715 had... 5 replace outs - I think.

Nope. 4 replace outs.

The easiest solution - without involving PRs - is to make a "soft" requirement to try to have players post at least one game related post per every 24 hours.

[Mulch]

geriatrics should get a cop head start to better align them with more skilled mafia communities

[AnonymousGhost]

out of practice towns

May I ask what this means?

I thought a big setback to the Open 715 Town was the fact that no one stopped to reevaluate from their death tunnels i.e. Fitz on QM, Alchemist on Fitz, and MoI on Fitz.

[AnonymousGhost]

geriatrics should get a cop head start to better align them with more skilled mafia communities

Devil's advocate: does this really solve "the problem" of the geriatric ruleset's current meta?

[Mathdino]

I thought a big setback to the Open 715 Town was the fact that no one stopped to reevaluate from their death tunnels i.e. Fitz on QM, Alchemist on Fitz, and MoI on Fitz.

all of these townies are relatively inexperienced with the current site meta

[AnonymousGhost]

So, what's the current site meta?

[RadiantCowbells]

Hrm

I might run a second geriatric at some point t with a 60 40 balance and heftier.rules on prod dodging. See what happens.

[AnonymousGhost]

By allowing people to go three days without posting probably affected the game. I don't know if Geriatrics - as a whole - follow this pattern.

Edit: Nope.

Button man's is the only Geriatric Game so far to allow players to go three days without posting. All the rest follow the 48 hour pattern.