Massclaiming is too good? How to deal with it?

[Beefster]

I've noticed that a lot of games end up massclaiming at some point and a lot of open setups are broken by massclaim- or at least massclaiming is the best strategy. There's really no way to stop this unless you ban hardclaims, but that's a bit heavy-handed. I can't help but feel that massclaims are gaming the setup.

Semi-opens seem to reduce the viability of massclaim, as do closed setups, but I've been in a Mini Normal that massclaimed and I'm sure it isn't terribly uncommon.

Having to work around the possibility of massclaim makes it much more difficult to make good setups.

Am I just blowing smoke on an unfixable problem or am I onto something?

[Flubbernugget]

"broken by massclaim" usually means impossible for scum to win unless town makes a logical error. I don't think that is the case with the setups today. Look through the open setup autopsy thread for an idea of what's going wrong with some of the more recent/popular setups today.

There's always a small minority of loud players that advocate for early massclaim. My anecdotal experience is that arguing for a long time about whether or not to massclaim helps scum more than the actual time at which a massclaim occurs.

[mastina]

Massclaims work on a basic principle--the information gained from the massclaim is of greater value than the consequences from the reveal of the massclaim (information lost).

It's for this reason that massclaim has a typical standard of being done the day before lylo--this is the point in time where players are held with the greatest level of accountability, and yet have the greatest amount of reliable information to claim. In lylo, you cannot trust a sudden cop guilty claim nearly as much as you can trust it the day before lylo, for instance. The idea behind claiming the day before lylo more or less is to maximize the chances of optimal action coordination: to make the most use out of what you have available.

This does in fact increase the town's chances of getting things done right. The day before lylo is the day where the town has the most information available: they have access to all prior flips and access to all players' posted stances throughout the game, allowing them to crossreference claimed PRs and if they fit into the setup and furthermore fit into the claimed players' play.

However, massclaim carries with it some inherent risks.
For a start--once you start massclaim, you NEED to finish it that day. No ifs, no ands, no buts. No takebacks. No half-finishing it. No starting it, then lynching before the conclusion of massclaim.
A secondary risk of massclaim is that time spent organizing a massclaim and then time spent analyzing the results of massclaim is time not spent scumhunting.
The third and final risk behind massclaim is people assuming role = alignment.

Role != alignment.
And you should ALWAYS judge things by the metric of Play > Role.

Scum can lie about what role they possess.
Even if the player is telling the truth about what role they possess, they can lie about how they used it.
Even if the player is telling the truth about how they used the role, that does not guarantee that the usage was inherently town.
Scum players can have town-sounding roles just as easily as town players can have scum-sounding roles. Balance in Normal games relies on this principle in fact. You're not meant to view a claim as inherently town unless it is undeniably town. (In Normals, Masons, ICs, Vigs, and Friendly Neighbors are all inherently town, but those are the only roles which are provably town; all others can be scum and/or scum fakeclaiming. Millers if proven such by a rolecop are town, too, but scum can fakeclaim Miller.)

Properly done massclaims take all three of these into account, and after the conclusion of the massclaim, they work on utilizing role mechanics and probabilities to augment existing scumhunting. They don't give a free pass to any player just off of their roleclaim. Instead they continue to analyze the situation and see if the player in question makes more sense as town or as scum. They lynch taking this into account, and then off of the results of the lynch and the nightkill, they continue to reevaluate every step of the way, to see what makes sense and what doesn't.

It also helps to have a sense of balance and to know how the NRG balances things, in Normal games at least. 3-4 town power roles, against goons or one moderate strength scum PR. If the game has provably diverged from that formula, adjust as appropriate. (Greater degree of town roles flipped/strength of town roles flipped, expect extra/stronger scum ones; greater degree/strength of scum roles flipped, expect extra/stronger town ones, and so on and so forth.)

Setup spec is of course a risky business. Moderators design their setups specifically such that setup spec is meant to

not

work. NRG members will in fact try to avoid passing games where setup spec leads to an easy town win. But properly handled, massclaim allows for setup spec to become useful and relevant to the outcome of the game.

So massclaim carries with it a number of theoretical strengths, but also a great many weaknesses. It's not gamebreakingly powerful assuming the mod did their job when designing the setup, but if the town has enough information to sift through and sort what makes more sense, then it is a great tool for narrowing down possibilities and creating strategies which are +EV for a town win. The town players just need to know how to properly utilize it. (And a great many...don't.)

[AnonymousGhost]

Games certainly have the potential to be broken by mass claim.

In semi-open or closed games, mass claim is slightly "fixed" because of the fact that town/scum don't know which roles belong to which faction. However, obvious town/scum roles can give away a player's alignment and then the game gets "broken".

For instance, mafia typically gets role blocker while town gets jail keeper. Having a town role blocker is a negative utility more than anything else, especially because it lacks of the protection of the jail keeper. So, the train of thought goes into... 'town role blocker doesn't make sense, let's lynch this role in case its scum because role blocker benefits scum more than town.' and the role blocker gets the lynch.

In semi-open or closed games, switching up the roles to the alignments can prevent mass claims from heavily favoring the town.

For instance, you could give the Mafia a doctor if you give the town a vigilante. It basically boils down into varying the typical roles used in each alignment and switching it up in order to not lend a mass claim a lot of town power after the town doctor outs themselves and becomes a conf!town. It also gets people to rely less on power roles to dictate someone's alignment, something that can be a big problem in role madness games.

[mastina]

However, obvious town/scum roles can give away a player's alignment and then the game gets "broken".

For instance, mafia typically gets role blocker while town gets jail keeper. Having a town role blocker is a negative utility more than anything else, especially because it lacks of the protection of the jail keeper. So, the train of thought goes into... 'town role blocker doesn't make sense, let's lynch this role in case its scum because role blocker benefits scum more than town.' and the role blocker gets the lynch.

This is fundamentally a flawed process and can and will lead to the town losing because Normal games are specifically designed to

not

allow this. There's a reason you don't exactly see a moderator running a Cop-Doc vs. Roleblocker Mini Normal setup. Nowadays, you'd be more likely to run into a Doc-Roleblocker vs. Cop setup, or Roleblocker-Cop vs. Doc setup, than you would Cop-Doc vs. Roleblocker.

Role != alignment.

The NRG does not balance assuming the Cop will be treated as town just for being a claimed Cop; the NRG balances assuming the

usage

of the role will be inherently town or inherently scum depending on the alignment. (I.e., a scum Cop will have results that don't help the town in any lasting, meaningful way and actually are a benefit to the scumteam; a town Cop will have results which are attempting to forward the town wincon.)

Thus, Play > Role.
Which can even be thought of as Play-->Role, in that it is the play surrounding the role which determines town utility vs. scum utility. A scum Cop is nigh-useless to the scum aside from being a role which looks town. A town Cop is one of the strongest town roles to have. A scum roleblocker is one of the two strongest scum roles in a Normal (the other being a Strongman, though you could make a case for roles like Ninja against a Tracker, Neighborizer, or even just Neighbor). A town roleblocker is of decent utility to a town but is only situationally useful and is situationally detrimental; it takes skill and specific circumstances to use well.

Now, granted.
SITUATIONALLY.
You can use setup speculation to great effect to determine scum roles versus town roles. If you in fact have a town doctor and a town cop flipped, then a claimed roleblocker would be something to be a bit more suspicious of more often than not.

But these are situational things, specific to the given setup, where you determine probabilities off of what roles you've seen and how they are likely to interact.

There's no universal standard, no universal "this role is massively more likely to be scum/town than town/scum", except for the roles which are explicitly one alignment or another. (The full list can be found on the Normal page: Friendly Neighbor, Innocent Child, Mason, Miller, Vigilante for town; Encryptor*, Ninja, Strongman, Traitor for scum. Any role I did not just list? Fair game for either alignment if it's whitelisted or even graylisted.)

*As noted on the page for Encryptor, while it is

usually

an anti-town role, there can and HAVE been Town Encryptors, even in a Normal. They're far less common though for rather obvious reasons. You can also easily circumvent them not being whitelisted for town by calling the role a Daytalk Enabler, which

is

whitelisted and yet is the exact same thing; an Encryptor is just a specific name FOR a Daytalk Enabler. They do literally the exact same thing: enable a topic to exist during a time it otherwise could not.

And yes I realize that sounds like a bit of an exploitable loophole/technicality, but as the rules are, it is what it is. Enablers are explicitly whitelisted, Daytalk Enabler is a type of Enabler which is perfectly legal; Daytalk Enabler has the same effect as an Encryptor just with a different name.

[GuyInFreezer]

Include less town-looking town role and add more town-looking scum role. Mix in some red herrings on town side.

[mhsmith0]

Per viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69237, which is obviously well out of date, town Roleblocker is only a bit less common than scum Roleblocker (larger difference for gated Roleblocker especially x-shot). I’d also agree that town Roleblocker is a potentially strong role when used well... it’s just that there’s a mixed bag of effectiveness, much like you see with a town vig.

Also, outside of role madness games, most setups have an outright majority of townies being vanilla, and are designed so that vanilla townie is a safe claim for scum.

[Mulch]

Include less town-looking town role and add more town-looking scum role. Mix in some red herrings on town side.

And then people complain and get salty when they lose because they weren’t given a free win by mechanics gaming

See: 1-shot mafia

[beeboy]

I enjoyed reading that post game.

[Espeonage]

Play in games with good mods. Simple as that.

Also learn how to Fake claim well.

[GreyICE]

More like scum suck at lying. If any scum is dumb enough to tell the truth about their role and get caught because the role sounds scummy they deserve their loss. Lie better. If you're thinking "wow that role would be really OP/stupid if a townie had it" then maybe claim something reasonable and not obviously scumfuck. Like "I'm a bulletproof vigilante, but don't worry I investigate as town" - actual day 1 claim from NGE mafia. If you're like "wow, lying is hard" then stop sucking like a hoover and learn to make better fakeclaims.

Like here's an example from this thread. We're talking about scum cops. You wanna know how to fakeclaim scum cop? JUST FUCKING DO IT. Holy shit, you know everyone's alignment, just say "well it looks like X investigated town." If you think there's going to be WIFOM over why you're not shot, then claim 1-shot cop, or even night cop, or something along those lines. If you need to be given a "Mafia Cop" role PM to give you permission to lie and claim cop you might just be bad at playing scum. Similarly Doctor. Look, you once again failed to protect the night kill. Or were roleblocked! It happens! Friggin scum roleblockers blocked you again because jerks made you claim. Wow everyone in the game is awful. Or tracker. Like, do you know how hard it is to actually catch someone with a tracker? If you have a rolecop, you can successfully "track" for eons without ever getting a meaningful result, just like town trackers do!

Like if claims like cop and doctor are actually clearing people it's not the moderators fault that they didn't give the scum a cop role, it's the scum's fault they're bad at the game.

[callforjudgement]

IME scum suck terribly at fakeclaiming but town also suck terribly at setup spec. The two are probably connected (if you're bad at setup spec you don't know which roles would be believable so you end up just fakeclaiming your own role).

[GreyICE]

Bad play is detrimental to your faction's chances of winning. Don't fix what ain't broke.

[MathBlade]

More like manipulate the situation to where you never have to lie.

I have an amazing scum win rate hyperpost as either alignment.

Mass claim is about giving town what they want. Not what they need. As scum.

[callforjudgement]

I often don't have to lie when playing scum. I'll do it if it seems necessary, though (but it's surprising how often you can go through a game without being put into a situation where you have to lie as scum). Occasionally, I'll lie repeatedly all the way through a game (to avoid being caught by setup spec), but when doing that I'll generally work out what roles and actions I want to fake in advance so that I can keep my story consistent.

In most setups, though, it's advantageous for at least one member of the scumteam to lie about their role (an all-vanilla scumteam normally wants one or two members to claim power roles, a power-heavy scumteam will typically want to all claim VT).

[Kublai Khan]

Interesting. In the last game I finished (Not_Mafia's Spyro Mafia (viewtopic.php?f=84&t=74398)), I was a town treestump advocating for a town massclaim on Day 1. It was on the grounds that we already knew two town non-vanilla roles and it was a micro. Scum ended up being among the ones who argued against it.

I agree that it's not the best strategy most of the times, but it certain cases it's a surprise move that scum don't plan for.

[Nero Cain]

Was viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74913 broken by setup?

[GreyICE]

Was viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74913 broken by setup?

Uh no? It looks like a perfectly ordinary game. 2 masons is about the same power level as a cop, just less swingy. Doctor is good defensive PR. Tracker is a good wildcard extra PR. There's enough wiggle room you could buy a weak extra PR if scum roles are unknown (for instance roleblocker + Rolecop would justify an extra weak town power role). A strong PR claim would call all the town PRs (except masons) into question. 2-shot roleblocker can stop a known tracker from confirming people have abilities, or stop a doctor from saving a mason.

Very vanilla, balanced setup, and massclaim is hardly an issue (it just kills your masons, with the roleblocker stopping doctor saves)

[callforjudgement]

That setup's balanced to mildly scumsided (I'm not quite sure how strong to count the Doctor as, because it's very good protecting a claimed Mason but it's not easy to tell how likely the Masons are to claim, and almost useless if it isn't protecting the Masons; the Tracker is not powerful enough to balance a setup alongside a Mason pair by itself). Apart from the Doctor/Mason interaction, there are no structural issues, and as GreyICE points out, massclaiming in that setup doesn't help at all.

[Nero Cain]

The whole point was that we

DID

massclain in lylo and I bought both PR claims (the doc less so but I still had no intention of lyching it) and both scum claimed VTs and I called bullshit on there being too many VTs.

[callforjudgement]

Yes, and? The whole point of Masons is that they can confirm by claiming (as they can confirm each other), so the only thing that massclaim actually does is confirm the Tracker (and only then because none of the scum faked a power role). That's something we take into account when balancing setups. (Also, the odds that all the power roles would even be alive at lylo are fairly low.)

[GreyICE]

The whole point was that we

DID

massclain in lylo and I bought both PR claims (the doc less so but I still had no intention of lyching it) and both scum claimed VTs and I called bullshit on there being too many VTs.

Then:
- The scum left the doctor and the tracker alive to LyLo (oops)
- The scum didn't realize there was probably two PRs left, and that therefore they needed to split PR and VT claim (oops)

These are mistakes. Making mistakes could have cost scum the game. It looks like town managed to lose anyway though. So town probably played worse. This is fine.

[Kublai Khan]

Yes, and? The whole point of Masons is that they can confirm by claiming (as they can confirm each other), so the only thing that massclaim actually does is confirm the Tracker (and only then because none of the scum faked a power role). That's something we take into account when balancing setups. (Also, the odds that all the power roles would even be alive at lylo are fairly low.)

Not enough scum fakeclaim mason. I managed to successfully do that in a game eaten by a crash.

[callforjudgement]

Who did you claim as your partner? A scumbuddy? A townie? Left it unclaimed?

All the options seem to have issues. (That said, we're updating the wiki's guide to gambits at the moment, so any successful examples of this strategy would be appreciated.)

[Kublai Khan]

Who did you claim as your partner? A scumbuddy? A townie? Left it unclaimed?

All the options seem to have issues. (That said, we're updating the wiki's guide to gambits at the moment, so any successful examples of this strategy would be appreciated.)

A large game. 5 person scum team. It was a massclaim at LYLO, I claimed mason with one other scum member (elvis_knits IIRC) who I had been deliberately benign towards & them towards me. Town accepted it but I think the site crashed before it actually ended (and game was mostly lost).