Multiball Balance

[Assemblerotws]

Can people with a degree of insight into multiball setups share their thoughts on how to properly balance a multiball?

[Lycanfire]

Multiple scum factions are benefited by the ability to look town. This hurts the town's day play.

Town are also at a disadvantage of being double shot at night.

Consider strong roles like "binary alignment cop".

You can find creative ways to up the towns power/hurt the mafias. I don't think multiball is as bad as most people claim it is. Know what people are going to have to deal with and balance with that in mind.

[RadiantCowbells]

Don't make multiball games

[Alisae]

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

[Spiffeh]

Don't make multiball games

[Alisae]

I mean
the only SERIOUS suggestion I can make is to make the multiball game Dayless, since you can't have both Dayplay and Multiball hand in hand.
And if I ever design a Multiball game I am letting my players know that A. Its Multiball and B. I don't care about balance and that it is going to be an aids game.

[GuyInFreezer]

1. Only attempt the multiball in large games, or at least 13p games. There is

ABSOLUTELY

no way to balance a multiball in small games.

2. Give town more powers, but distribute them more. Multiball is hard for town, so they need something to be compensated. However, giving town too many strong roles will flip that situation around and put a massive disadvantage on mafia, because multiball mafia tend to have less members than usual.

2a. Same goes for the mafia. It's normally a bad practice to get mafia screwed over by a setup by losing one member, and it's doubly so in multiball.

3. Make the setup more protective than usual if you can't handle 2 deaths per night.

4. Don't ever make uneven mafia members. Don't even go there.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh, my post assumes that the multiball has 2 mafia factions. More factions, well, don't go there. Trust me.

[mastina]

Can people with a degree of insight into multiball setups share their thoughts on how to properly balance a multiball?

The first thing you want to know about balancing multiball is...you can't balance multiball.

The second thing you want to know about balancing multiball is...you SERIOUSLY cannot balance multiball.

The third thing you want to know about balancing multiball is that even when you get some semblance which loosely looks like an idea we might consider in the range of "balanced", it will always be swingy.

The fourth thing you want to know about balancing multiball is that no matter the counters you take against the swing it cannot be eliminated.

...But going into item number five:
Never have UNDISCLOSED multiball. It's okay if you don't want to explicitly confirm from the onset that the game is multiball, but I would recommend being explicit.
Still. YOU MUST. At an absolute minimum. Declare:
"There is a possibility this game contains more than one anti-town faction."

Failure to provide that will result in catastrophe for balance.

The sixth thing you'll want to know about multiball is that it is often anti-fun; you don't want to run it.

The seventh thing you'll want to know about multiball is that if you still want to run it after all these disclaimers, that you need to have a clearly defined idea of what metric you consider balanced. Is 50-25-25 town-scum-scum balanced, or is it 33-33-33? The two are mutually exclusive, and you MUST know which you are aiming for when you are designing the setup--town to have a 50% chance of winning, or each faction to have equal chances at winning.

The eight thing you'll want to know is that there is zero acceptable other metrics. Even if said other faction is a serial killer. ESPECIALLY if said other faction is a serial killer. 50-25-25 or 33-33-33. Not 45-40-5 town-mafia-sk. Just because they have less numbers doesn't mean they should have less odds of winning. On that note.

The ninth thing you'll want to know is fuck asymmetry. Don't even bother with it. You don't have to mirror scumteams' powers (but if you do, power to you I guess), but you DO need to give them equal numbers because if you try to make an asymmetric setup where one side has more scum than the other you WILL fuck the balance up. (Even though balance is already fucked up.)

The tenth thing you'll want to know is that multiball games have a LOT of kills going around. Best to have a fair number of kill prevention methods, but properly distributed such that each faction is given the appropriate level of protection. (For instance, a serial killer needs far more protection than a scumteam of five does.)

The eleventh thing you'll want to know is that multiball games have cross-kills happen, so the town needs less help from investigatives than normal; keep investigatives lower than in a typical game because if you pile them on you fuck the scum over.

The twelfth thing you'll want to know about multiball is that because you've got twelve things to know and remember about multiball unless you think you can remember all twelve and create a setup implementing all of them, you shouldn't run a multiball game.

The thirteenth thing you'll want to know about multiball is that you won't be able to know/remember/implement all the twelve things about multiball and thus you should just drop the idea.

[Creature]

SK games are worser than multiball game imo.

[mutantdevle]

All these criticisms against multiballs and well reasoned arguments against why they aren’t balanced has inspired me to design a multiball setup. 3v5v5 town:scum:scum sounds good right?

[GuyInFreezer]

33-33-33

What the heck?
That breaks the fundamental rule of "town has majority" and shouldn't even be considered.

[Espeonage]

I like making it not both factional kills each night.
I like Alien as an alignment.
I like X-shot Cult recruiter without a kill as an alignment.

[Creature]

33-33-33

What the heck?
That breaks the fundamental rule of "town has majority" and shouldn't even be considered.

She meant percentage.

[GuyInFreezer]

33% 33% 33% is still not town majority.

[Bicephalous Bob]

she was probably talking about EV, not the number of players

also viewtopic.php?p=6595842#p6595842

[mastina]

she was probably talking about EV, not the number of players

Correct, which should have been apparent by the fact that 50-25-25--the alternative numbers I posted to 33-33-33--is STILL not a town majority. (50 is not town majority, it is half when majority is 51.)

I was talking about chances of a faction winning.

50-25-25 is a school of thought (town to win half the time; other factions to win divided equally between them); 33-33-33 is a school of thought (each faction to win an equal amount); you can be of the opinion one is 'right' and the other is 'wrong' but regardless of which camp you fall in there is no school of thought other than those two which is ever acceptable. (As in, no 40-20-35-5 town-scum1-scum2-sk chances of winning.)

[RadiantCowbells]

50 25 25 is what it should be

Fire and ice is like 20 40 40

[Ranmaru]

I hate multiball

[GuyInFreezer]

I... actually enjoy multiball.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Don't run multiball setups unless you can actually balance against the swing of a multiball setup.
You can't balance the swing of a multiball setup.

Can people with a degree of insight into multiball setups share their thoughts on how to properly balance a multiball?

The first thing you want to know about balancing multiball is...you can't balance multiball.

The second thing you want to know about balancing multiball is...you SERIOUSLY cannot balance multiball.

The third thing you want to know about balancing multiball is that even when you get some semblance which loosely looks like an idea we might consider in the range of "balanced", it will always be swingy.

The fourth thing you want to know about balancing multiball is that no matter the counters you take against the swing it cannot be eliminated.


The thirteenth thing you'll want to know about multiball is that you won't be able to know/remember/implement all the twelve things about multiball and thus you should just drop the idea.

Don't make multiball games

[Espeonage]

I... actually enjoy multiball.

[Espeonage]

Controversial opinion.

Swingy games ARE NOT A BAD THING.

[mastina]

I... actually enjoy multiball.

If it's announced then I enjoy the cruise control if I draw town (my normal scumhunting methods are useless, but I can still have fun just by watching the world burn thanks to the chaos), if it's unannounced or if I draw scum then fuck multiball.

Controversial opinion. Swingy games ARE NOT A BAD THING.

I don't exactly disagree, though I would say that the more extreme the swing, the more likely you are to have players rant in the postgame and/or feel cheated and multiball setups inherently have more swing than a comparable singleball game.

[Espeonage]

Ok sure, but mitigating the swing entirely is not required to run a great game and there are many people posting that multiball is bad because it will always have some swing.