Are SKs Played Wrong?

[Inferno390]

Just thinking about this, and it seems to me that everyone says that SKs are really hard to play, but at the same time there isn't really a strategy for playing SKs on site.

Why not treat it as a alignment-swapping vig? Play as scummy town until all the scum are dead, then kill town until you're the last guy remaining?
I think that would make it much easier to play as SK because you would have an easier time getting into late game.

[Creature]

I think SKs are implemented wrong.

It's like multiball but with one scumteam being at one therefore into a huge disadvantage.

Then the mod must make it bulletproof investigation immune 1-shot ascetic whatever SK and later in the game town has to find someone who isn't associated to anyone leading to an annoying game.

[Mathdino]

Why not treat it as a alignment-swapping vig? Play as scummy town until all the scum are dead, then kill town until you're the last guy remaining?

this is basically how people play SK

this gets you lynched

also NKA is real

[Cheery Dog]

Yes they are played wrong.
This is because it's wrong to include a SK in the game.

I used to think I'd be excited to get to play one, but it's all bad news after you've been scum in general a few times and needing to hope your buddies can win for you.

[mutantdevle]

I don't get why you'd play as a scummy townie? Surely you want to help town lynch scum and then shoot to kill scum at night. As a SK, you first threat is to eliminate scum. You 1vtown once they are eliminated.

[Zachrulez]

I am amused at the sentiment that SKs lose because they play the game wrong. Truth is you need a perfect storm in your favor to win as an SK.

[McMenno]

sks are bad but can we talk about survivors

[Mathdino]

lynch survivors before lylo, gg

[Beefster]

I think SKs are implemented wrong.

It's like multiball but with one scumteam being at one therefore into a huge disadvantage.

Then the mod must make it bulletproof investigation immune 1-shot ascetic whatever SK and later in the game town has to find someone who isn't associated to anyone leading to an annoying game.

Yes they are played wrong.
This is because it's wrong to include a SK in the game.

I used to think I'd be excited to get to play one, but it's all bad news after you've been scum in general a few times and needing to hope your buddies can win for you.

I'd like to see a game with just a serial killer. Or maybe 2 competing serial killers.

Or a 1-shot bulletproof serial killer versus a town with a compulsive vigilante and a 1-shot doctor.

[Creature]

I think SKs are implemented wrong.

It's like multiball but with one scumteam being at one therefore into a huge disadvantage.

Then the mod must make it bulletproof investigation immune 1-shot ascetic whatever SK and later in the game town has to find someone who isn't associated to anyone leading to an annoying game.

Yes they are played wrong.
This is because it's wrong to include a SK in the game.

I used to think I'd be excited to get to play one, but it's all bad news after you've been scum in general a few times and needing to hope your buddies can win for you.

I'd like to see a game with just a serial killer. Or maybe 2 competing serial killers.

Or a 1-shot bulletproof serial killer versus a town with a compulsive vigilante and a 1-shot doctor.

Spoiler: Not Mafia via 1 scum

SK Deduction 6p

6 Players

1 Serial Killer

5 Townies

• The first player who is lynched selects a player. If that player is the SK, the SK loses. If that player is town, they are revealed as such and the game continues.

Issue:

Mafia is a game of finding mafia through lies and connections. Key word being connections. Being able to partner search is an integral part of the game and without any partners a large aspect of the game is removed (partner searching).

[Creature]

SKs are bad unless they gotta do more than just don't get lynched nor nightkilled.

[kuribo]

I am amused at the sentiment that SKs lose because they play the game wrong. Truth is you need a perfect storm in your favor to win as an SK.

*cough*DGB in Gay Mafia II*cough*

[Thestatusquo]

SK is a terrible role that is almost inherently unbalanced.

[Inferno390]

Okay, so what I was thinking is you could play it like a Cute Fuzzy Kitten defense. Play so obviously bad town that people can't help but read you that way. You know, sort of like my playstyle.

[Thestatusquo]

I just think giving most players somewhere between 40-50% chance to win the game given optimal play and one player sub 5% is just straight up bad game design.

[yessiree]

I think some people enjoy the challenge

[Thestatusquo]

I think some people enjoy the challenge

Yes, but that is actually not in any way responsive to what I just said. Players don't get to choose their roles.

[yessiree]

I think some people enjoy the challenge

Yes, but that is actually not in any way responsive to what I just said. Players don't get to choose their roles.

then just don't play sk setups if they are not your cup of tea

serial killers provide an additional layer of complexity to mafia, thereby raising the skill ceiling beyond the ones commonly seen in informed minority vs uninformed majority

I don't think setups where the sk has an astronomically low % chance of winning are inherently bad setups because you can also say that they are a true testament to the extent of one's capabilities

[Thestatusquo]

I think some people enjoy the challenge

Yes, but that is actually not in any way responsive to what I just said. Players don't get to choose their roles.

then just don't play sk setups if they are not your cup of tea

serial killers provide an additional layer of complexity to mafia, thereby raising the skill ceiling beyond the ones commonly seen in informed minority vs uninformed majority

I don't think setups where the sk has an astronomically low % chance of winning are inherently bad setups because you can also say that they are a true testament to the extent of one's capabilities

Thats not a viable option with closed setups.

I don't have a problem with the idea of third parties or complexity, but putting a serial killer in your setup essentially says to most players who receive the role in most circumstances "you are going to lose this game you will be investing 2-3 months of your time into almost no matter what you do and I am doing this to you in order to make my game more complex."

I'm not saying the role cant be done better than that, but the vast majority of SK roles right now are bad game design.

[Flubbernugget]

Sounds like it's time for the return of the nk immune Miller vig

[yessiree]

ok so I'm gonna ask what's the story behind the nk immune Miller vig

[Thestatusquo]

ok so I'm gonna ask what's the story behind the nk immune Miller vig

Only the best fake claim in this history of the site:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=6195&p=797819&hilit=miller#p797819

[Zachrulez]

I think some people enjoy the challenge

Yes, but that is actually not in any way responsive to what I just said. Players don't get to choose their roles.

then just don't play sk setups if they are not your cup of tea

serial killers provide an additional layer of complexity to mafia, thereby raising the skill ceiling beyond the ones commonly seen in informed minority vs uninformed majority

I don't think setups where the sk has an astronomically low % chance of winning are inherently bad setups because you can also say that they are a true testament to the extent of one's capabilities

Thats not a viable option with closed setups.

I don't have a problem with the idea of third parties or complexity, but putting a serial killer in your setup essentially says to most players who receive the role in most circumstances "you are going to lose this game you will be investing 2-3 months of your time into almost no matter what you do and I am doing this to you in order to make my game more complex."

I'm not saying the role cant be done better than that, but the vast majority of SK roles right now are bad game design.

I had a player react this way in one of my marathon games when they received the SK role so I definitely see this side of the argument.

I don't think I've ever used an SK in a normal length game partly for those reasons and also because it's kind of a pain to balance the other alignments around it too.

[yessiree]

If putting an SK makes a setup impossible to balance around, it looks to me the setup wasn't bulletproof to begin with ie. 1) there's an over reliance on specific

roles

and interactions, or 2) there's an over reliance on specific numbers and ratios.

So the introduction of an SK isn't the cause of the imbalance - rather, it highlighted the flaws already present in the setup

[Thestatusquo]

I think the SK is fine for overall game balance. In fact, my balance philosophy is probably a bit more cross kill heavy than most mods would be comfortable with, but from an individual balance perspective its inherently bad.