The Newbie 2d3 stats thread (upd. 2019-05-28, 87g)

[Not Known 15]

• 2 goon vs 5 vt, doctor, tracker
  
• 2 goon vs 6 vt, jailkeeper
  
• 2 goon vs 6 vt, cop
  
• goon, rolecop vs doc, jailkeeper
  
• goon, rolecop vs. tracker, jailkeeper
  
• goon, roleblocker vs. doc, cop
  
• goon, roleblocker vs. cop, tracker

Sorry... no.
1 - ok
2 - ok
3 - horrible(highly townsided)
4 - very swingy, townsided.
5 - swingy, but borderline OK.
6 - swingy and NOT ok - 2 investigatives ooof.

3 is an accident waiting to happen(JK'er is strong lategame, and Doc can allow it to survive even longer).
Look at 3 and 4 again - don't you see it? How are Tracker and Doc paired with Jailkeeper of the same strength? Doc/JK has better synergy!
6 is also BAD. Cop AND tracker? If it gets really bad you get double - investigated N1. Even one red check Night 1 or a lynch Day 1/2 and the Tracker becomes a Cop.
Generally, I foresee elaborate claim strategies for Town which is just bad.

[schadd_]

Wasn't goon, rolecop vs. doctor, jailkeeper discovered to be very townsided back in the 2of4 days?

Admittedly, the balance of a subsetup will depend on what other subsetups exist, but I wouldn't have expected there to be that much of a difference.

probably true, plus it suffers from the tendency of (especially newbie) scum to not claim doctor when they're getting lynched

i think rolecop is hard to find balance around with the typical selection of un-gated roles but simultaneously i don't like roleblocker setups in newbies

some other ideas

Spoiler:

• 2 goon vs 5 vt, doctor, tracker
  
• 2 goon vs 6 vt, jailkeeper
  
• 2 goon vs 6 vt, cop
  
• rolecop, goon vs. 5 vt, jailkeeper, tracker
  
• rolecop, goon vs. 5 vt, jailkeeper, 1-shot cop
  
• rolecop, goon vs. 7 vt; nightkill automatically fails night 2 and night 3

Spoiler:

• 2 goon vs 5 vt, doctor, tracker
  
• 2 goon vs 6 vt, jailkeeper
  
• 2 goon vs 6 vt, cop
  
• goon, roleblocker vs. doc, cop
  
• goon, roleblocker vs. cop, tracker

Sorry... no.

these are all existing 2d3 setups except the fourth (which i think is the one you are taking issue with) and the last

[Not Known 15]

these are all existing 2d3 setups except the fourth (which i think is the one you are taking issue with) and the last

And 2d3 needs to be replaced... so this isn't a good argument.

What about my idea?

[Not Known 15]

2 goon vs 5 vt, doctor, tracker<--- everything gets counterclaimed
2 goon vs 6 vt, jailkeeper
2 goon vs 6 vt, cop<---singular role. If you are a Cop you know that there is nothing else.
rolecop, goon vs. 5 vt, jailkeeper, tracker< - same
rolecop, goon vs. 5 vt, jailkeeper, 1-shot cop<- CC's!
rolecop, goon vs. 7 vt; nightkill automatically fails night 2 and night 3

ummmmm that means town has three backtoback lynches and Mafia can only eliminate once. But without any confirmed town it will still be difficult for town. Not sure.

So.
Mafia cannot fakeclaim without being immediately outed except vs Jailkeeper.
Tracker always claims D2 strategy is probably good(fakeclaim chance is low). 1-shot Cop always claims D2 strategy is obviously good. Didn't we want to eliminate these strategies?

2 goon vs 5 vt, doctor, tracker
2 goon vs 6 vt, jailkeeper
2 goon vs 6 vt, cop
goon, roleblocker vs. doc, cop
goon, roleblocker vs. cop, tracker

1. Tracker always claims Day 2 is optimal unless the cop found someone.
2. Doc Cop Rber has awful newbie stats under 2d3.
At this point I'd like to say that it is the small roles that are doing so much damage(claim - wise) here. Which is exactly why I didn't include small town roles into my setup.

[schadd_]

night 1 ninja + 1-shot rolecop vs. watcher and jailkeeper is probably townsided
night 1 ninja + 1-shot rolecop vs. 2 masons is scumsided

it would be more straightforward to have setups labeled as "daytalk enabled/disabled" rather than having an encryptor since it's an open setup and the effect of the encryptor flip is marginal - moreover i don't really like using it as a balance consideration in a newbie setup to begin with(daytalk should probably be on by default just to make newbie experience generally less nerve-wracking)

the rest of the setups are probably fine. you should come up with a single name for "(ninja rolecop)"

[Not Known 15]

night 1 ninja + 1-shot rolecop vs. watcher and jailkeeper is probably townsided
night 1 ninja + 1-shot rolecop vs. 2 masons is scumsided

it would be more straightforward to have setups labeled as "daytalk enabled/disabled" rather than having an encryptor since it's an open setup and the effect of the encryptor flip is marginal - moreover i don't really like using it as a balance consideration in a newbie setup to begin with(daytalk should probably be on by default just to make newbie experience generally less nerve-wracking)

the rest of the setups are probably fine. you should come up with a single name for "(ninja rolecop)"

Hm, ok.
I don't think that Night 1 ninja and 1-shot Rolecop vs Watcher and Jailkeeper is townsided because due to the nature of the setup watcher and jailkeeper together cannot be reliably trusted(they are not confirmed town). The Night 1 Ninja stops the Watcher; so getting outed is less likely.
Daytalk is not on by default because this allows newbies to get experience in non-daytalk setups as well, and those still exist. This allows newbies to take this into account.
About the masons... on second thought the EV won't go up much with more townies in case of Masons. And the rolecop...

	A (6 Vanilla Townies , daytalk )	B (6 Vanilla Townies , daytalk only Day 1 )	C (5 Vanilla Townies , daytalk )
Mafia	Mafia Night 1 Ninja and Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon and Mafia 1-shot (Ninja Rolecop)	Mafia 1-shot (Ninja Rolecop) and Mafia Night 1 Ninja
Row 1	Town Cop	Town Cop	Town Watcher and Town Jailkeeper
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper	Town Watcher
Row 3	Town Jailkeeper	Town Watcher

This could do it. EDIT: Actually, no. This should do it.
Pick a row, then pick a column. Column 3 can only be picked on row 1.
5 setups , 7 in total, 4 with daytalk, 3 with limited daytalk. Good chance that newbies can experience the difference between daytalk and limited daytalk.

Why do you suggest having a unique name for the (Ninja Rolecop) combination?

[PenguinPower]

I'm likely not considering a setup/setups without daytalk.

[u r a person 2]

my 2 cents: day talk is a must have for newbie games. Asking 2 first-gamers to figure out how to scum when out on an island is a recipe for unfun games regardless of setup

[Not Known 15]

I'm likely not considering a setup/setups without daytalk.

Hm. What about Day 1 daytalk?

[Not Known 15]

Hm, ok, fine, maybe not.

You can try this, but it is slightly more mafia-sided:
However, Mafia isn't multitasking!
Randomly pick a row.
Then pick a column.
If the column is empty(C), try again unless this is the fourth attempt, then the setup is 1 C.

	A (6 Vanilla Townies , daytalk )	B (6 Vanilla Townies , daytalk )	C (5 Vanilla Townies , daytalk )
Mafia	Mafia Night 1 Ninja 1-shot Rolecop and Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon and Mafia Night 1 (Ninja Rolecop)	Mafia Night 1 (Ninja Rolecop) and Mafia Night 1 Ninja 1-shot Rolecop
Row 1	Town Cop	Town Cop	Town Watcher and Town Jailkeeper
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper	Town Watcher
Row 3	Town Jailkeeper	Town Watcher

If you think this is still in the good range(it probably is) then try it out!

[Lycanfire]

People are too concerned about noob scum and care too little about noob town. Has there been an example of day talk, especially on day 1 ever mattering for noob scum?

Holding a gun to the head of an entire queue is a strange decision.

[PenguinPower]

What a strange turn of phrase to use. Feel free to contribute your ideas or convince me why it's not needed. The feedback I have received re: daychat has been positive, and chats like this could be why.

[Ircher]

What a strange turn of phrase to use. Feel free to contribute your ideas or convince me why it's not needed. The feedback I have received re: daychat has been positive, and chats like this could be why.

"You are not authorized to read this topic."

[PenguinPower]

Huh. Mod said it had been released. Try again.

[nomnomnom]

I'd say daytalk is absolutely necessary for noobscum. Not giving them the daytalk makes them feel ultra stressed on top of rolling scum in one of their first games which is ultra stressful to begin with. I think it's a terrible idea removing it.

[nomnomnom]

That and it teaches them the kind of power that scum has when having a daytalk and understanding that having coordination is an advantage, which is a good learning tool.

[u r a person 2]

in my experience, day talk doesn't even really give newb-scum an advantage (they suggest scummy ideas and act on them and get caught anyway), so it really only effects the fun level of those newb-scum players

I'm in the pro-fun camp for newbie games ;P

[Toomai]

@Toomai
are you planning to continue updating these stats?

Ugh did the links stop updating again? I'll try to have a look in the next day or two.

EDIT: Apparently Dropbox did something weird and now I have to rebuild a few months of stats. Should be fine shortly.

[BNL]

@NK15 I think the Mafia roles are too complicated

[BNL]

I feel like the issue with newbie setups in general is that the more traditional, simpler roles are preferred.

The issue with that is that Tracker and Jailkeeper are such roles, but are also really swingy, both becoming Cops once the first Mafia dies.

I don't think it's possible to keep newbie games having both low swing and simple roles.

[Not Known 15]

I feel like the issue with newbie setups in general is that the more traditional, simpler roles are preferred.

The issue with that is that Tracker and Jailkeeper are such roles, but are also really swingy, both becoming Cops once the first Mafia dies.

I don't think it's possible to keep newbie games having both low swing and simple roles.

Yes.
However, games with more than one role run into the distinct claim strategy problem, and that's why they are usually bad(My only 2 power roles specific setup is explicitely designed into the general setup to lead to no complicated claim strategies from town unique to that specific setup.

@NK15 I think the Mafia roles are too complicated

The newbies can always ask about them. Yes, they are a bit more complicated, which means that there should be an opening post by the moderator in the Scum PT that details what these roles can do. E.g.:
Mafia Night 1 Ninja 1-shot Rolecop: This person cannot be detected Night 1(by the Watcher), and it can, once per game, including Night 1, determine a person's role. It cannot be detected Night 1 regardless of the type of action(kill, rolecop)
Mafia Night 1 (Ninja Rolecop):This person can, on Night 1, determine a person's role. If it does, they cannot be detected. If it kills Night 1, it can be detected.
You may either kill or use your role. Not both.

[mastina]

my 2 cents: day talk is a must have for newbie games. Asking 2 first-gamers to figure out how to scum when out on an island is a recipe for unfun games regardless of setup

I'd say daytalk is absolutely necessary for noobscum. Not giving them the daytalk makes them feel ultra stressed on top of rolling scum in one of their first games which is ultra stressful to begin with. I think it's a terrible idea removing it.

That and it teaches them the kind of power that scum has when having a daytalk and understanding that having coordination is an advantage, which is a good learning tool.

in my experience, day talk doesn't even really give newb-scum an advantage (they suggest scummy ideas and act on them and get caught anyway), so it really only effects the fun level of those newb-scum players

I'm in the pro-fun camp for newbie games ;P

This, plus, it need not be two newbs who benefit from it. A semi-experienced player with a newb scummate can learn valuable skills in scum leadership/coaching. Just because you're not new doesn't mean you can't learn skills from a newbie; a more experienced scum player, with daychat, can learn how to coordinate with less-experienced teammates in a fairly consistent, reliable setting.

It

can

give an advantage--but it doesn't have to.
It

can

be more fun--reason enough.
It

can

be a better teaching tool--reason enough.

[Cabd]

I will say that I explicitly designed the setup, flawed or not flawed as may be argued, for day-talk not only because of balance, but also because of site norms and the fun aspect.

/notdead

[Zachrulez]

I'd say daytalk is absolutely necessary for noobscum. Not giving them the daytalk makes them feel ultra stressed on top of rolling scum in one of their first games which is ultra stressful to begin with. I think it's a terrible idea removing it.

Back in my day we didn't have daytalk and we did just fine...

... Kids these days...

What a strange turn of phrase to use. Feel free to contribute your ideas or convince me why it's not needed. The feedback I have received re: daychat has been positive, and chats like this could be why.

Daytalk is definitely not required for a smooth and enjoyable game experience. Need to be careful not to confuse between being 'desirable' and 'needed'

[Ircher]

But hasn't daytalk reduced the number of scum newbie replacements? I remember that being a thing back when Mina did the daytalk trial in the Newbie Queue.

Sure, maybe it is not 100% needed, but it is so desirable that to exclude it would truly be a huge shame.