In post 99, Ircher wrote:But hasn't daytalk reduced the number of scum newbie replacements? I remember that being a thing back when Mina did the daytalk trial in the Newbie Queue.
Sure, maybe it is not 100% needed, but it is so desirable that to exclude it would truly be a huge shame.
I took a quick look at the data on this setup vs the data from a matrix newbie setup I found from 2014. Replacement rates look to be a bit lower across the board. I'm not sure if single point movement in replacements is statistically significant. (There are going to be fluctuations and then there's the question of what caused them.)
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:01 am
by mastina
In post 98, Zachrulez wrote:Daytalk is definitely not required for a smooth and enjoyable game experience. Need to be careful not to confuse between being 'desirable' and 'needed'
Sure--it's not
required
.
But it makes it happen
more often
and
more consistently
.
You
can
have a smooth/enjoyable game experience without daytalk.
You're
more likely
to have a smooth/enjoyable game experience with daytalk.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:22 pm
by Toomai
Update complete, Dropbox issue subdued (whatever it was), hopefully can pay more attention to it in the future.
I think this is the most telling stat so far:
Excluding day 1 (well, excluding all 7:2 lynches),
half
of
all
lynches are on scum (51.0%). Even including D1 makes this 44.9%. For Matrix6 newbie games, it was only a third (32.7%).
Spoiler: Matrix6 graph
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:32 pm
by implosion
Consider, however, what happens when you look exclusively at day 1; with a still decently solid sample size, 31% of lynches now are on mafia, compared to 20% before. Can this be easily explained with only setup differences? (To be clear, this may be a real question if there are very widespread d1 claim strats, I don't know as I haven't played newbies recently). If not then the differences as a whole are likely also not explained only by setup differences, and may have to do with changing meta in some way.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:10 pm
by TTTT
No, the day1 scumlynches aren't the result of a claiming strategy
It feels like towns have been getting better in Newbie games
and I think this data confirms that
the question now is do we want a Newbie setup that is s more favorable to scum to counteract a site meta of skilled town?
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:22 pm
by Not Known 15
In post 104, TTTT wrote:It feels like towns have been getting better in Newbie games
.... or scum has been getting worse.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:24 pm
by PenguinPower
Either way (though I agree with TTTT), looking at boosting scum a bit may be warranted.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:50 pm
by u r a person 2
if TTTT took a break from newbie queue, scum win rates would jump 10% at least, and he never rolls scum =/
guy needs a title like "newb-hunter" but more clever
(love ya buddy)
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:03 pm
by nomnomnom
In post 107, u r a person 2 wrote:if TTTT took a break from newbie queue, scum win rates would jump 10% at least, and he never rolls scum =/
guy needs a title like "newb-hunter" but more clever
(love ya buddy)
The Rookie Killer
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:05 pm
by Toomai
Okay I think I've changed my mind for most telling stat; this one is significantly more specific (if a bit less in sample size).
(X:Y-Z = X-day D1, Y-day D2+, Z-hour prods)
The shorter deadlines have wrecked scum. (p=0.0703)
In post 98, Zachrulez wrote:Daytalk is definitely not required for a smooth and enjoyable game experience. Need to be careful not to confuse between being 'desirable' and 'needed'
Sure--it's not
required
.
But it makes it happen
more often
and
more consistently
.
You
can
have a smooth/enjoyable game experience without daytalk.
You're
more likely
to have a smooth/enjoyable game experience with daytalk.
My experience was pretty even both ways honestly.
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 12:02 am
by Not Known 15
In post 109, Toomai wrote:Okay I think I've changed my mind for most telling stat; this one is significantly more specific (if a bit less in sample size).
(X:Y-Z = X-day D1, Y-day D2+, Z-hour prods)
The shorter deadlines have wrecked scum. (p=0.0703)
Ah, yes.
That makes perfectly sense(and it is actually something I warned about before...).
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 3:31 am
by Irrelephant11
Yeah the deadline thing makes a lot of sense. Part of some scum wins in the newbie forum is apathy and time for newbscum to gain their footing. The shorter deadlines have cut back on both (potentially a good thing in the case of the former, potentially a bad thing in the case of the latter)
If we're okay with doing things we wouldn't do elsewhere on the site to maximize the amount of fun newbies have, I'm kinda okay with a townsided setup - makes for more newb winners per game.
But some setups do feel less like mafia and more like a semi-broken PR puzzle, which is antithetical to MafiaScum's emphasis on dayplay and should probably be fixed
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 3:42 am
by Irrelephant11
Someone suggested my recent Choose Your Own Adventure semi-open could be a newbie setup. I'm not sure, but I thought I'd share it here anyway in case it can somehow add to this discussion in a helpful way.
I think this setup might be lightly townsided (to balance for MS's oft-scumsided dayplay meta), but here it is anyway:
Parity Neapolitan
Doctor
5 vts
1-shot strongman & goon
Named townie
Jailkeeper
5 vts
1-shot strongman & goon
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 3:54 am
by Plotinus
that's a really cool setup. Let me know if you run it as a micro.
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 4:43 am
by nomnomnom
Immediate problem that comes to mind is that a lot of the game's discussion is inevitably going to get around "who chose what letter" and if you think about it in terms of a game that's supposed to help newer people get into the game that doesn't sound like a good idea. Perhaps a generation of sorts would solve the problem?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 4:52 am
by BNL
That's a good setup but I don't think it's suited for a newbie setup
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 5:23 am
by Irrelephant11
Oh I agree that if the setup I just posted is used in anyway it would have to be overhauled for newbie friendliness (remove the letter picking in favor of random generation, make the scum 1-shots factional, etc).
Are there any open setups that aren't semi-opens that could just *be* the newbie setup? Something like a micro Watchers Wanted or Marked for Death?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 5:37 am
by Cabd
The answer to the question of "what should the newbie setup be" REALLY depends on "WHAT is the purpose of the newbie queue?"
You gotta ask the right questions.
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 5:40 am
by Irrelephant11
Hey guys I have a question
WHAT is the purpose of the newbie queue?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 5:46 am
by PenguinPower
Irrelephant11 wrote:Hey guys I have a question
WHAT is the purpose of the newbie queue?
- Introduce players to forum mafia - more specifically introduce them to how mafia is played on our site
- Create an experience that leads to them returning for more games, eventually branching out to other queues/areas of the site and retaining them long term.
Stacking the setup in favor of town achieves "eventually branching out to other queues/areas" but not "retaining them long term". If we're giving out majority wins because some players only have fun when they win, they will be the sort to replace out of games they are losing, leading to full site flake or, worse, not leaving the site and replacing out all the time.
Keeping powerful roles like sane cop in the newbie setup isn't a good strategy either. I just got out of Krazy's large theme and it was super wacky and yada yada but there was 1 three shot investigative in a large theme with only one of the abilities as strong as sane cop, and that is in a large. So running 9 player games with an ungated cop is not actually representative of site play even if these players are going to move onto our stuff on the role-madnessier end of the spectrum. The simplicity of these setups works against them, we can't have millers because it's not a closed game and the miller would become named, so as a result we are literally putting a role in the game where every game after that the player is never going to experience a role as powerful as that. And it's supposed to be representative for discerning which players are going to fit well here long term?
I think this ^ (making scum abilities factional rather than assigning them to a slot) would be a good simple change if we're looking to keep things relatively similar to the way they are but help scum out a bit.
--> You could alternatively add a rule like "all power roles stop working after night 2" because scum PRs on night 3+ are usually too little too late to be helpful and town PRs past N2 are often gamebreaking in town's favor
If we're looking to really overhaul the setup somewhat to represent how MS likes diffused/complex town and scum power (because swinginess and follow the cop are bad), then I think it could be interesting to, say, make next month's setup challenge a "design a new newbie" challenge and see if that gets us anywhere helpful.
