Problems with the Scummies

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:42 am

Post by mastina »

In post 22, Faraday wrote:won't work, judges won't get through the sheer volume of games needed to judge it properly - so it'll be judged half assed and poorly.
Speaking as a judge--while this was in fact the place where my judging was at its weakest, this was not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be. I DID go through games. I do admit I didn't go through games quite as thoroughly as I'd have preferred, but I wouldn't call the judging I did half-assed/poor.

It's not hard to go through the necessary games and highlight key aspects.
In post 22, Faraday wrote:the biggest problem with the scummies has always been a lack of volunteers to judge who then follow through and judge
properly
.
Which is why having more judges has always been my suggested answer and I maintain it as being the correct one. Judges might not be able to judge every category properly, but with more judges, they don't need to. I don't think that it's a lack of volunteers, so much as a lack of easy access to volunteering.

There was an announcement made in one thread asking for judges fairly late--but it was a fairly obscure announcement if I recall correctly, one not readily available to find. Make it much, much, much easier to apply/volunteer to be a judge, and I guarantee you you'll get the needed number of volunteers. Lack of exposure to how to volunteer is in fact going to suffocate the number of volunteers.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:45 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 25, mastina wrote:Which is why having more judges has always been my suggested answer and I maintain it as being the correct one. Judges might not be able to judge every category properly, but with more judges, they don't need to. I don't think that it's a lack of volunteers, so much as a lack of easy access to volunteering.
i think you're assuming that there were always more volunteers than people selected, that was definitely not the case.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:51 am

Post by Faraday »

i'm not specifically talking about this year (since i've no clue what's happening these last 3 or so years), but in the past there were definitely global announcements, so visibility definitely wasn't the problem - and we got maybe 12-15 candiates max most years. from that point, maybe half of those probably went forward and did a good job judging.

obvously like all these things, making them so as many people as possible can see them is better.
Speaking as a judge--while this was in fact the place where my judging was at its weakest, this was not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be. I DID go through games. I do admit I didn't go through games quite as thoroughly as I'd have preferred, but I wouldn't call the judging I did half-assed/poor.
i also wouldn't call yours half assed, but the majority of the time i personally didn't think the level of scrutiny for BOW awards wasn't high enough - as someone who judged them and read a shit load of games, it's a difficult thing to try to read maybe up to 60 games for one award. it usually ended up with 2 or 3 people reading them and a couple of people popping up to agree.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:54 am

Post by mastina »

In post 26, Faraday wrote:i think you're assuming that there were always more volunteers than people selected, that was definitely not the case.
No, I'm stating that you'd get more volunteers if
-More people knew HOW to volunteer, and
-More people knew they COULD volunteer.

Neither of which, people are well aware of. The process for volunteering is not widely known/very public.

Making a year-round easily accessible place for this information to be found (for instance, having a blurb about volunteering to judge in the Scummies thread itself as a possibility) would be a start--
...And so too would, when judges are needed the most, a global announcement asking for them.

No fucking shit you're not going to get a large number of volunteers if people don't know how to volunteer or if they are legally even able to volunteer. (I knew that when I volunteered, I wasn't even sure I legally could do the job thanks to a combination of me having nominated someone in almost every category and/or having been nominated in categories leaving no Scummie where I was neither. The answer was, obviously, that I could in fact volunteer, but I didn't KNOW I could and the first indication I could was when I was accepted into the judging group.)
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:55 am

Post by Faraday »

w/r/t the actual awards themselves, yeah they need work too.

i always liked most enjoyable player as an award for showcasing something other than actual "technical skill" - making games fun should be something awarded too. similarly i thought best town/best scum performance should have been left there and awarded if a scum team or town performed particularly well.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:01 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 29, Faraday wrote:i always liked most enjoyable player as an award for showcasing something other than actual "technical skill" - making games fun should be something awarded too. similarly i thought best town/best scum performance should have been left there and awarded if a scum team or town performed particularly well.
Echoing this. I understand the motivation/justification to removing most awards and I can understand the reasons why these awards were removed--
Enjoyable player is too subjective or something of that sort,
Best Towns are rarely every town player or some bs of that sort,
Best scumteams can be nominated as a group for Don Corelone (except from experience judging backstage on how that was handled...no they fucking can't), something like that.

But I can't really agree with that.
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Post by Faraday »

In post 30, mastina wrote:Enjoyable player is too subjective or something of that sort,
i mean, let's be real "good town play" and "good scum play", beyond results is subjective too. who cares, awards for being fun is good
Last edited by Faraday on Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Post by Mathdino »

most enjoyable player being reinstituted could possibly move all of the popularity contest elements into that one award

that award is literally designed to be a popularity contest
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:04 pm

Post by Faraday »

i mean, yeah, so what?
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:08 pm

Post by Faraday »

realistically tho looking at the ssc - everyone on it is inactive as far as i can tell, so it's no wonder this years hasn't happened. get 4-5 active people to help zor out with it, let them run it their way for a year and see if they can increase interest in popularity - get feedback on how it went at year end and work from there. given the general consensus at the moment, it couldn't go that much worse.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:08 pm

Post by Mathdino »

i'm saying having a popularity contest scummie is a good thing

both for outright recognising popularity

and for discouraging voting on the other awards as a popularity contest
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:10 pm

Post by Faraday »

oh ya, sorry i just presumed you were disagreeing since it's usually brought up in a negative light about that award. my b.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:15 pm

Post by Faraday »

In post 24, mastina wrote:We used to have a 'Best Replacement' Scummie which got dropped.
Missed this b/c you have long posts. Actually, idr why this was dropped - but i agree it's a fine award. (Also I agree that more awards don't make for much harder judging, there are really only certain body of work awards that are very difficult to judge due to how time consuming they are).
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:28 pm

Post by Mathdino »

yeah no i like popularity contests lol
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:13 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

There will be more volunteers when people care about the scummies

You're treating it like a foregone conclusion that things are the way they are: get people who have connections in the modern mafia community to take charge of the scummies and encourage qualifies people to mod while making the scummies matter more to people and that will change.
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:15 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I also think it's important that the scummies are separate from the administration of the site and I've outlined some of the reasons.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:19 pm

Post by popsofctown »

I don't think the community has a large enough overall size to give something like the scummies both a full staff of interested judges and total disconnection from the MS old-boy's-club. Kicking old-boy's-club members out probably can't work out well. Pressuring them about giving new players equal opportunity to be involved is prolly a Good Thing and it looks like you're doing some of that.

I just skimmed.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:19 am

Post by GreyICE »

First, lets get this out of the way - the Scummies were only serious when they sucked. I remember at one point I believe Shotty had "best town performance" - and he was a player who self-voted in 3P LyLo. What happened is that the scummies were joke awards, and weren't taken very seriously. Then a few people behind the scenes decided they were Serious Business. So they tried to make them Serious Awards given out to Serious Players. So after some cliquish infighting, they got rid of most of the fun and joke awards to make sure they were Serious Business (like "best performance in a losing cause" or "Wackiest role claim").

So the result was that without the fun, people started giving the scummies all the respect they deserved - which is to say none at all. They were half-joking awards from the start. 2015 was just the twilight era of the Serious Business crowd.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:26 am

Post by GreyICE »

Like, lets take an example: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60862&hilit=scummies

The first award is "Most Memorable Moment". Given out to N, for this post: viewtopic.php?p=5881845#p5881845

Gosh, that's really... oh wait, it's fun jokes between friends. Yes, winning awards was recognition, but sometimes it was just recognition that you made people laugh, or had a good time, or something like that. If it was plagued with invoting and nepotism, well, it was never supposed to be serious. They were an acknowledgment that as heated and intense as games could get, they were just people typing on the internet about who is a member of a fake organization. What killed the scummies? The people who wanted Serious Scummies. The people who took out all the joke categories, and silliness, and fun from the proceedings. When people started acting like the banner meant something, and engaging in in-fighting to get it. Asking for Serious Scummies won't make anyone take them seriously, RC.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:32 am

Post by Mathdino »

i think the happy medium is just bringing back all the unserious awards

i do think people consider "paragon", "don corleone", and the moderator awards to be in high regard

bringing back unserious awards creates a vote dump for all the popular/funny/charismatic users

while paragon/don corleone/mod awards can be seriously voted on for their intended criteria
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:34 pm

Post by Alisae »

Compromise
Have fun awards AND serious awards.


OR what Mathdino just posted.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:36 pm

Post by Alisae »

idunno like
more exposure + that would maybe help
/shrug
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:50 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

I agree with a balance of fun and serious awards.
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:20 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

I disagree that the scummies were ALWAYS a joke award. Though having some serious awards (paragon/don etc.) and less serious ones like Kodak or fave to play with seems like a good mix but I don't think that really "fixes" anything.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:23 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 12, nancy wrote:the scummies are garbage because the playerbase is garbage
like this is...partly true. Not completely but kinda. And its pot kettle too....
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