Problems with the Scummies

callforjudgement · Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:47 am

I stopped being interested in the Scummies as soon as nominations were moved to an external site rather than being part of the Scummies thread on-site.

Reading nomination posts and seeing the ensuing discussion was the thing I was mostly interested in, and that isn't here any more (in fact, the discussion mostly doesn't happen). Sure, the piling-on of "nth" was annoying, but when people actually gave reasons it was worth reading.

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:38 am

just an update that the 2017 finalists are up

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #77 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:39 am

In post 75, callforjudgement wrote:I stopped being interested in the Scummies as soon as nominations were moved to an external site rather than being part of the Scummies thread on-site.

Reading nomination posts and seeing the ensuing discussion was the thing I was mostly interested in, and that isn't here any more (in fact, the discussion mostly doesn't happen). Sure, the piling-on of "nth" was annoying, but when people actually gave reasons it was worth reading.

back to this, I feel like the nthing still happens so the change didn't really do much

Tammy · Post Post #78 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:12 am

In post 51, Nero Cain wrote:I think all of

Best Replacement
Best Inexperience-Challenged Player-for this one, I'm thinking more along the lines of who teaches the best and not the IC the plays the best.
Best Contribution to Mafia Discussion
Best Performance: Scum Group
Best Performance: Pro-Town Team
Most Enjoyable player

should come back

In post 52, Mathdino wrote:what how did those EVER go away

For anyone who's interested in why these awards went away, they gave their reasoning here: viewtopic.php?p=7599231#p7599231

The reaction to the removal of most of these awards wasn't positive, as you can see if you read on from that link. One of the things that came out of that discussion is that one of the reasons for the removal of those awards was that there was too much of a burden on the judges. GreyIce has a point to about people taking the awards a bit too seriously and that affected them as well. (A lurker might get carried by a town team and be rewarded with a best town performance banner; we can't allow a travesty like that to happen!)

These are awards that should come back. I don't doubt that the workload for the judges is a burden, but I'm not sure that the solution is to remove things that the site as a whole enjoyed, or at least seemed to, for a few people. RC might be right in that things need to change on the committee's end. I don't imagine that the whole committee needs to be completely overhauled or that getting rid of people who have been sacrificing their time for this for years is the right way to go. But maybe change the way awards are judged, actively try to recruit people who might be interested in judging, etc can help keep the scummies fun and interesting.

RadiantCowbells · Post Post #79 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:19 am

I have nothing but respect for everything they've done over the past years but correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like they've largely moved on but for whatever reason the scummies haven't.

If they want to come back and put the time into the game as it is to get to know the people that play know, if they want to invest their time into recruiting people, if they want to invest their time into changing the image that the scummies have around site then I would be very happy to have them stay. But I don't think that that's the way things are right now. I don't think that the scummies are self sustaining without a lot of time put in by people who are passionate about it. But even then I feel like there have been a substantial amount of decisions made that the site as a whole are not okay with and the attitude thus far has been the one expressed in the scummies suggestion thread, that we can say what we want but the SSC knows best and are going to do things their way. And I'm not alone in disliking the way that things are done as is.

Mathdino · Post Post #80 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:33 am

In post 78, Tammy wrote:For anyone who's interested in why these awards went away, they gave their reasoning here: viewtopic.php?p=7599231#p7599231

The reaction to the removal of most of these awards wasn't positive, as you can see if you read on from that link. One of the things that came out of that discussion is that one of the reasons for the removal of those awards was that there was too much of a burden on the judges. GreyIce has a point to about people taking the awards a bit too seriously and that affected them as well. (A lurker might get carried by a town team and be rewarded with a best town performance banner; we can't allow a travesty like that to happen!)

These are awards that should come back.

Okay, let's break this down!

Best Replacement: Did Replacement Hero ever happen? If not, bring the award back. We have loads of candidates there. Make it Body of Work or Single Game.

Professor Mafia: Their reasoning is fair. That said, literally just make a Best Article award and a Best IC award. There are enough contenders for those.

Funniest/Most Enjoyable Player: This is an important award.

Best Pro-Town Team: Don't give out banners for this. Problem solved.

Best Scum Team: This should obviously be a thing. Make Don Corleone a Body of Work award again.

Community Contributor: Meh. Take it or leave it. wgeurts and KMo were really the main ones who ever did enough for this anyway.

Ranmaru · Post Post #81 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:36 am

At work, I agree with Mathdino.

Tammy · Post Post #82 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:48 am

In post 79, RadiantCowbells wrote:I have nothing but respect for everything they've done over the past years but correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like they've largely moved on but for whatever reason the scummies haven't.

If they want to come back and put the time into the game as it is to get to know the people that play know, if they want to invest their time into recruiting people, if they want to invest their time into changing the image that the scummies have around site then I would be very happy to have them stay. But I don't think that that's the way things are right now. I don't think that the scummies are self sustaining without a lot of time put in by people who are passionate about it. But even then I feel like there have been a substantial amount of decisions made that the site as a whole are not okay with and the attitude thus far has been the one expressed in the scummies suggestion thread, that we can say what we want but the SSC knows best and are going to do things their way. And I'm not alone in disliking the way that things are done as is.

I didn't think you were disrespecting the people who do the scummies and the time they put in. I just think that if someone is on the committee and still wants to be, they should be. Also, I just looked at the link for who is on the committee, and it has to be more than what is listed right?

I do agree with the rest.

brassherald · Post Post #83 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:53 am

I hate the reasoning for getting rid of Best Pro-Town Team, Mafia is a team game.

To put a real world analogy in there, Jordan Jankowsky was horrible last year. Still a World Series Champion. You don't need to give banners, but, getting rid of an award just because people "got carried" is just bad.

GreyICE · Post Post #84 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:57 am

In post 83, brassherald wrote:I hate the reasoning for getting rid of Best Pro-Town Team, Mafia is a team game.

To put a real world analogy in there, Jordan Jankowsky was horrible last year. Still a World Series Champion. You don't need to give banners, but, getting rid of an award just because people "got carried" is just bad.

"We can't give out superbowl rings because people might think Joe Flacco is an elite quarterback!"

Also sending out a PM in November/December reminding people to nominate things for scummies if they feel someone deserved it would raise visibility.

Oh and yeah, bring it back onsite. And stick some of the awards on our splash page! People should be able to read "the most enjoyable game" or "the best town performance" because that's putting our best foot forward. If they don't like those, they probably won't like MS.

brassherald · Post Post #85 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:07 am

In post 84, GreyICE wrote: "We can't give out superbowl rings because people might think Joe Flacco is an elite quarterback!"

Crazy thing, this happened in real life.

Tammy · Post Post #86 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:11 am

In post 80, Mathdino wrote: Okay, let's break this down!

Best Replacement: Did Replacement Hero ever happen? If not, bring the award back. We have loads of candidates there. Make it Body of Work or Single Game.

Professor Mafia: Their reasoning is fair. That said, literally just make a Best Article award and a Best IC award. There are enough contenders for those.

Funniest/Most Enjoyable Player: This is an important award.

Best Pro-Town Team: Don't give out banners for this. Problem solved.

Best Scum Team: This should obviously be a thing. Make Don Corleone a Body of Work award again.

Community Contributor: Meh. Take it or leave it. wgeurts and KMo were really the main ones who ever did enough for this anyway.

I don't think the replacement hero thing happened. But I haven't been overly active for the past couple years, so I'm not sure. I've not noticed any types of pins.

Eh I think the banner issue for the best town team was misguided. Recognizing a town that against the odds had enough members who were able to come together to eliminate scum and win, sometimes perfectly, seems more important for the site than getting concerned that lurkers, who know they were carried 90% of the time, getting a banner.

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #87 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:12 am

In post 84, GreyICE wrote:stick some of the awards on our splash page! People should be able to read "the most enjoyable game" or "the best town performance" because that's putting our best foot forward. If they don't like those, they probably won't like MS.

good idea
put things like best setup, goty, best town performance, and maybe best scum performance on the main page

RadiantCowbells · Post Post #88 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:14 am

I think the scummies aren't for the recipients, they're for the site as a whole. being a recipient is more of a responsibility than anything.

Raskolnikov · Post Post #89 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:36 am

Get someone who cares, is somewhat competent/responsible, crucially a active or recently active player, and is reasonably well connected with the people who actually play mafia, then give them free reign to headhunt judges and or open recruit to help organise a more modern judging pool for 2018 and take on some of the organisational work. I'd maybe look at something like a mathdino rc mhsmith kind of character for this. Regarding a lack of judges I doubt the problem is sheer lack of interest but just the OP's point that current recruiting/organisation is too disconnected or out of touch from the active playerbase. Furthermore if I'm reading alisae and nero cain posts correctly, there are people who care and want to help but they aren't used effectively.

Spoiler:

Alisae · Post Post #90 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:25 pm

In post 80, Mathdino wrote:
In post 78, Tammy wrote:For anyone who's interested in why these awards went away, they gave their reasoning here: viewtopic.php?p=7599231#p7599231

The reaction to the removal of most of these awards wasn't positive, as you can see if you read on from that link. One of the things that came out of that discussion is that one of the reasons for the removal of those awards was that there was too much of a burden on the judges. GreyIce has a point to about people taking the awards a bit too seriously and that affected them as well. (A lurker might get carried by a town team and be rewarded with a best town performance banner; we can't allow a travesty like that to happen!)

These are awards that should come back.
Okay, let's break this down!

Best Replacement: Did Replacement Hero ever happen? If not, bring the award back. We have loads of candidates there. Make it Body of Work or Single Game.

Professor Mafia: Their reasoning is fair. That said, literally just make a Best Article award and a Best IC award. There are enough contenders for those.

Funniest/Most Enjoyable Player: This is an important award.

Best Pro-Town Team: Don't give out banners for this. Problem solved.

Best Scum Team: This should obviously be a thing. Make Don Corleone a Body of Work award again.

Community Contributor: Meh. Take it or leave it. wgeurts and KMo were really the main ones who ever did enough for this anyway.

I agree with most things with this.
Except these.
Best Replacement: I feel like I'm the only person that feels like this award shouldn't be here in the current site climate. Its not going to motivate people to replace in, the game/mod/players do that themselves. Like, I don't feel like there is someone that stands out that deserves this right away for 2017 idunno I could be wrong here.
Pro Town-Team/Scum-Team, blah blah look, here's a better suggestion. Make Don Corleone a body of work, Keep Paragon a body of work. But just make it a Best Town Performance award or a Best Scum Performance award. Don Corleone in its current state DOES include scumteams, so thats fine. But if people don't want to reward that one person that got carried by x y and z, just give nominate x, y, and z for the Best Town Performance award.

RadiantCowbells · Post Post #91 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:36 pm

I love you alibae <3<3<3

Ranmaru · Post Post #92 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:51 pm

I think Best Replacement is a nice touch for those that do take the time to replace. It's quite the task and it's nice to be rewarded for doing so and especially being the best at it. Especially when replacing into 100 page games. Don't tell me it's 'you should do that without any incentives in the first place!'. It's also not something to brag about, again, more so a reward.

Alisae · Post Post #93 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:54 pm

In post 92, Ranmaru wrote:I think Best Replacement is a nice touch for those that do take the time to replace. It's quite the task and it's nice to be rewarded for doing so and especially being the best at it. Especially when replacing into 100 page games. Don't tell me it's 'you should do that without any incentives in the first place!'. It's also not something to brag about, again, more so a reward.

You think this is the case.
But if it were implimented you would be like "oh...I don't really actually care tbh."

Alisae · Post Post #94 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Like you're saying "It's a good touch"
but let's face it
we all know you're lieing to either me or yourself when you say that its something that would get nominations

Ranmaru · Post Post #95 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:59 pm

I've never really paid too much attention to the nominations or scummies, so I don't really know how I would feel afterwards. (You might be right on the 'I don't care tbh' part, but I don't know that yet, without experiencing it myself) I'm not a good liar so no, not lying to you or myself. Yet let's say we put it back and it doesn't get many nominations, why does that mean we should drop it as a category instead of encouraging others to push for nomination in that category more, especially if there seem to be quite a few people (at a glance) that like the category.

UnaBombaH · Post Post #96 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:35 pm

In post 67, mastina wrote:
In post 52, Mathdino wrote:what how did those EVER go away
"The same people are being nominated for these awards year after year, so we're going to drop them".
Not joking.

Yea, I can see the logic behind this.
Being consistently good at something might hurt everyone elses confidence..

Like, who would want to be reminded that someone else is better than they are at anything?

/s

UnaBombaH · Post Post #97 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:39 pm

If I can re-find my full motivation for this site, I'd be willing to participate in all sorts of activities, if I knew HOW, WHEN, and WHERE.

I also think that scummies should be a bigger thing - from a newer players perspective - it felt really good to be nominated. Then again, I get a half-job everytime someone praises me in anyway, so...

Alisae · Post Post #98 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:47 pm

Have you tried being a better pokemon?

Alisae · Post Post #99 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:48 pm

In post 96, UnaBombaH wrote:
In post 67, mastina wrote:
In post 52, Mathdino wrote:what how did those EVER go away
"The same people are being nominated for these awards year after year, so we're going to drop them".
Not joking.
Yea, I can see the logic behind this.
Being consistently good at something might hurt everyone elses confidence..

Like, who would want to be reminded that someone else is better than they are at anything?
/s

in all seriousness thats not the logic because thats a shitty arguement, if anything that would motivate them to try harder