Gauging Interest: Opt In Rankings League
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I think ranking or win/loss record is a good idea. Not because it has a high degree of statistical accuracy, but because they're fun. Look how many people put them in their signatures as is. If we say "the normal queue has win/loss records automatically" then I think we'd see a surge of interest. People like rankings.
MS never does anything because the philosophy around here is "if something is less than perfect it's pointless". The perfect is the enemy of the good has never been better exemplified than by the decisions made around here.
I'd keep it to the normal queue, the last thing themes need is an argument of whether someone's record lost points because the setup turned out to be busted.ShowThat which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil
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Agreed. However, if the end goal isn't to have a winner but an accurate representation of what skills you need to work on, the deviation of sample size will naturally decrease over time and really isn't super important anyway.In post 18, zoraster wrote:The fundamental problem with a mafia ranking system is repetition. Even our most active users don't play enough games to give a very good idea of their skill from a purely win/loss standpoint.
For fun and to have a way to track whether they're getting better or worse. Like, the type of player interested in this won't change based on their skill, but being able to play against 'better' players also doesn't change the validity of knowing how good you are.In post 21, camn wrote:Why would anyone who is actually ~good~ actually opt in for this?
For something like Kagami's suggestion, the draw is most definitely bragging rights/the thrill of winning but that is a pretty big difference. And I think you'll find the subset of people who are interested would end up being spread over the people who are good or bad (despite being good or bad at mafia being inherently difficult to pin down).
Why give an overall score at all? Just have a database of accuracy of D1 townreads vs other people, a separate column of D2 townreads vs. other people, etc up to DN. Do another set for scumreads. Win/Loss as each faction is easy enough to track (and probably the most simple to automate). Days survived as scum is pretty easy. I know there's more stuff that can be tracked, but that's all off the top of my head. I don't think you really need to fight with synthesizing that into a single score when the goal (at least in my mind) is to help people identify where they should work on their skills. Now, for a traditional league you'd want a large number of games with a very similar playerlist and setup so that the other factors would turn into a function of game win/loss. But that sounds so tedious for the players that I doubt anyone would care. 2 games with roughly the same playerlist and setup might be doable. Even five is pushing it though, and you'd want a larger sample size than the number of individual players at least.In post 22, Espeonage wrote:Ok my issue with it is how do you score it? Because if you value accuracy of townreads it needs to be percentage based which just makes a bunch of jesters day 2 of scum dies day 1. Otherwise you are valuing living which is inherently anti town. The whole point is that town are expendable and sometime you just gotta die.
In hindsight you are 1000% correct. And that's on me for being unclear with the OP.In post 24, Psyche wrote:think should be framed as something less charged than a ranking
it's a way to measure and understand your typical read accuracy within and across games in a way that has more validity than currently available methods
i think that, aside from the rankings thing, could help loads for advancing site meta
Keeping it to the normal queue, at least in the short term, seems like a good idea given the NRG and the system for normals should keep out corner case games that don't work for measuring your skill fairly well without adding more work to this project.In post 25, GreyICE wrote:I think ranking or win/loss record is a good idea. Not because it has a high degree of statistical accuracy, but because they're fun. Look how many people put them in their signatures as is. If we say "the normal queue has win/loss records automatically" then I think we'd see a surge of interest. People like rankings.
MS never does anything because the philosophy around here is "if something is less than perfect it's pointless". The perfect is the enemy of the good has never been better exemplified than by the decisions made around here.
I'd keep it to the normal queue, the last thing themes need is an argument of whether someone's record lost points because the setup turned out to be busted.
If you're at all interested in working on automation Psyche, that'd be awesome. Coding is something I have neither the talent for nor desire to do, so I would handle it in an old fashioned way, but if someone wanted to take that on as a project making this self sustaining would definitely be interesting.This is a Parachute.- StefanB
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This is actually a nice idea. It is uncomplicated and gives people who want it bragging rights.In post 25, GreyICE wrote:I think ranking or win/loss record is a good idea. Not because it has a high degree of statistical accuracy, but because they're fun. Look how many people put them in their signatures as is. If we say "the normal queue has win/loss records automatically" then I think we'd see a surge of interest. People like rankings.
MS never does anything because the philosophy around here is "if something is less than perfect it's pointless". The perfect is the enemy of the good has never been better exemplified than by the decisions made around here.
I'd keep it to the normal queue, the last thing themes need is an argument of whether someone's record lost points because the setup turned out to be busted.
Tumbs up.- Kagami
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If you care about individual rankings, here's a straightforward thought:
Make an opt-in scumhunters league of individuals just as you describe. Make a PT in which you alert league players to games entering signups. Players can /in to the game in your PT provided they aren't actually playing in that game. On Night 1, players who /in'ed must submit a ranking of living players' scumminess similar to that of the recently completed team mafia tiebreak. That ranking is transformed into a score 0-1 post-game on the basis of who the scum is (the are several easy ways of doing this). Then you produce an overall score for each player using the lower bound of their wilson score CI.- Mathdino
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I was actually just going to suggest kagamis idea
Would make things a lot more fun for that crowd that reads every game on site- Kagami
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I might do it if it is implementedIn post 30, Mathdino wrote:I was actually just going to suggest kagamis idea
Would make things a lot more fun for that crowd that reads every game on site<Embrace The Void>
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we all know that would be a popularity contest though
subjective rankings distributed to the masses are probably not great- ActionDan
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This would make it exclusively scumhunting and not overall game skillIn post 29, Kagami wrote:If you care about individual rankings, here's a straightforward thought:
Make an opt-in scumhunters league of individuals just as you describe. Make a PT in which you alert league players to games entering signups. Players can /in to the game in your PT provided they aren't actually playing in that game. On Night 1, players who /in'ed must submit a ranking of living players' scumminess similar to that of the recently completed team mafia tiebreak. That ranking is transformed into a score 0-1 post-game on the basis of who the scum is (the are several easy ways of doing this). Then you produce an overall score for each player using the lower bound of their wilson score CI.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- Mathdino
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What's the problem with that
Most people don't get in pissing matches over who has more charisma
People much more often argue about the accuracy of their reads- RadiantCowbells
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All aspects of game skill are important. The game is not about static snapshots, it's about interaction, changing your reads, learning with the flow, and convincing people to follow you. But it's all silly fun, so just implement a win-loss record and leave it at that.In post 38, Mathdino wrote:What's the problem with that
Most people don't get in pissing matches over who has more charisma
People much more often argue about the accuracy of their reads
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
You are trying to make a perfect system, but your system is not good. It is, in fact, very bad. People will do it for 2-3 games, then drop it, because it's annoying, moderators have other things to do, people forget to fill it out, etc. For any system like this, the number one strength is it has to be easy. It has to be just as easy as playing a mafia game, it should be no different from playing a mafia game. Win-Loss record is that.
It's like trying to determine how good someone is at League or DOTA by checking their CS at 15 minutes, because "win-loss record isn't enough, sometimes people get carried". Only you're saying "well CS isn't enough either, lets give them a popup quiz in the middle of their game to check their game knowledge." That's not going to work.
Implement a win-loss record for normal queues
It's that easy. Hell, some related good might come out of it - people will start taking the fucking normal queue seriously (it is 100% a shitshow from what I can see) and setup reviews might be taken a little bit seriously. So that's two bits of good that could come out even if you don't care about the system at all. And hey, if someone tries to claim their reads are good because of their W/L record, it gives you tons of room to just laugh. Mafia should not be a game of sheeping the person with some random few percentage points improvement over a baseline. And if you want to ignore it? The theme queue is already way more popular, just go there and have fun!ShowThat which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil
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So what actually happens? Basically some peeps play some game and others outside of it guess like the tie breaker? I actually like the idea of it so I can improve on my reads some more. Sort of like a book club, but with an actual incentive. Sometimes I don't feel like entering game after game as I need to take breaks. Plus would be fun to discuss with others and then see if you were wrong or not.
Sure, it won't serve as practice for all skills, but it is one method of many, and should be supplemental along actual game experience.- Kagami
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I'm building infrastructure for this now!
There will be a PT and a bot that alerts the PT when games are available to /in. The bot will PM /in'ed scumhunters when games hit N1 (and maybe N3 if there's sufficient interest), and will accept readslists.
A google sheet will be available with rankings. I believe I will allow pseudonyms for the ranking list.
I have also devised an amusing reward structure, to be revealed later.- Jingle
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Maybe advertise the signups in Mishmash, cause while it isn't mafia it does seem like a fun game for people to play.
Also, I think RC gave you a perfect name with league of scumhunting.
You should probably ask Nexus (Nexus runs the normal queue right?) to get permission to use the queue, even just as a formality and definitely get mod approval before using people's games, just in case they have some complaint about it.This is a Parachute.- Mulch
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i think a lot of people play more for the reads and the solving aspect than the actually playing mafia aspect
and a lot of people who are like that have quit mafia because it's an absolutely hellish game to actually participate in
i can think of a lot of people that would really enjoy this kind of thing- Mulch
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Yes but it's just going to reinforce the notion that you should always stick to your reads and never listen to others and never change them
It's gonna hurt gameplay a lot. Never said it's not going to be enjoyable. It's just deepening a problem. Kind of like if you have a seething pain and you decide to take pills to pass out..w.Amrock#3784- Mathdino
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or it could show a bunch of people that their reads aren't amazing?- Mulch
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But...this is the entire pointIn post 47, Mathdino wrote:or it could show a bunch of people that their reads aren't amazing?
we shoulden't be focusing on reads
we should be focusing on wins
Wins>reads
Do what it takes to win
And that involves not being hyper sensitive about your reads
and worried about your reads
and becoming partial to your reads
and becoming even more invested in them etcAmrock#3784- Ranmaru
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Reads is one of the many skills you need to win, though. Good thread on that here: On compromises. I know what you mean though, you mean not being too stubborn with your reads to the point of not being willing to re-evaluate, right? I have the opposite problem. Go read the white flag game I was in that just finished, and you'll see what that was. I don't think this will really change how stubborn or fickle people are with their reads, but it might help their accuracy, and meta knowledge. Winning is important, but reads are what help you to get there, along with other skills. You could say that my near downfall in the team mafia game was my bad reads. I realize that now. - Ranmaru
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