Gauging Interest: Opt In Rankings League

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
GreyICE
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
User avatar
User avatar
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
Fifty Shades
Posts: 15455
Joined: December 15, 2010

Post Post #25 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:49 am

Post by GreyICE »

I think ranking or win/loss record is a good idea. Not because it has a high degree of statistical accuracy, but because they're fun. Look how many people put them in their signatures as is. If we say "the normal queue has win/loss records automatically" then I think we'd see a surge of interest. People like rankings.

MS never does anything because the philosophy around here is "if something is less than perfect it's pointless". The perfect is the enemy of the good has never been better exemplified than by the decisions made around here.

I'd keep it to the normal queue, the last thing themes need is an argument of whether someone's record lost points because the setup turned out to be busted.
Show
That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil


Official Visigoth

Read Mother Jones
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10069
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #26 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:58 am

Post by Psyche »

can automate win/loss record stuff with some reworking of the normal game archives that's currently sort of not really underway
if there's robust interest in that, i can make it more of a priority to finish coding
youtube playlist extracter | donbot | game scraper | vca | setupsim | strategist | llm
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #27 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:01 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 18, zoraster wrote:The fundamental problem with a mafia ranking system is repetition. Even our most active users don't play enough games to give a very good idea of their skill from a purely win/loss standpoint.
Agreed. However, if the end goal isn't to have a winner but an accurate representation of what skills you need to work on, the deviation of sample size will naturally decrease over time and really isn't super important anyway.
In post 21, camn wrote:Why would anyone who is actually ~good~ actually opt in for this?
For fun and to have a way to track whether they're getting better or worse. Like, the type of player interested in this won't change based on their skill, but being able to play against 'better' players also doesn't change the validity of knowing how good you are.

For something like Kagami's suggestion, the draw is most definitely bragging rights/the thrill of winning but that is a pretty big difference. And I think you'll find the subset of people who are interested would end up being spread over the people who are good or bad (despite being good or bad at mafia being inherently difficult to pin down).
In post 22, Espeonage wrote:Ok my issue with it is how do you score it? Because if you value accuracy of townreads it needs to be percentage based which just makes a bunch of jesters day 2 of scum dies day 1. Otherwise you are valuing living which is inherently anti town. The whole point is that town are expendable and sometime you just gotta die.
Why give an overall score at all? Just have a database of accuracy of D1 townreads vs other people, a separate column of D2 townreads vs. other people, etc up to DN. Do another set for scumreads. Win/Loss as each faction is easy enough to track (and probably the most simple to automate). Days survived as scum is pretty easy. I know there's more stuff that can be tracked, but that's all off the top of my head. I don't think you really need to fight with synthesizing that into a single score when the goal (at least in my mind) is to help people identify where they should work on their skills. Now, for a traditional league you'd want a large number of games with a very similar playerlist and setup so that the other factors would turn into a function of game win/loss. But that sounds so tedious for the players that I doubt anyone would care. 2 games with roughly the same playerlist and setup might be doable. Even five is pushing it though, and you'd want a larger sample size than the number of individual players at least.
In post 24, Psyche wrote:think should be framed as something less charged than a ranking
it's a way to measure and understand your typical read accuracy within and across games in a way that has more validity than currently available methods
i think that, aside from the rankings thing, could help loads for advancing site meta
In hindsight you are 1000% correct. And that's on me for being unclear with the OP.
In post 25, GreyICE wrote:I think ranking or win/loss record is a good idea. Not because it has a high degree of statistical accuracy, but because they're fun. Look how many people put them in their signatures as is. If we say "the normal queue has win/loss records automatically" then I think we'd see a surge of interest. People like rankings.

MS never does anything because the philosophy around here is "if something is less than perfect it's pointless". The perfect is the enemy of the good has never been better exemplified than by the decisions made around here.

I'd keep it to the normal queue, the last thing themes need is an argument of whether someone's record lost points because the setup turned out to be busted.
Keeping it to the normal queue, at least in the short term, seems like a good idea given the NRG and the system for normals should keep out corner case games that don't work for measuring your skill fairly well without adding more work to this project.

If you're at all interested in working on automation Psyche, that'd be awesome. Coding is something I have neither the talent for nor desire to do, so I would handle it in an old fashioned way, but if someone wanted to take that on as a project making this self sustaining would definitely be interesting.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
StefanB
StefanB
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
StefanB
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2601
Joined: December 20, 2010
Location: Germany

Post Post #28 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:36 am

Post by StefanB »

In post 25, GreyICE wrote:I think ranking or win/loss record is a good idea. Not because it has a high degree of statistical accuracy, but because they're fun. Look how many people put them in their signatures as is. If we say "the normal queue has win/loss records automatically" then I think we'd see a surge of interest. People like rankings.

MS never does anything because the philosophy around here is "if something is less than perfect it's pointless". The perfect is the enemy of the good has never been better exemplified than by the decisions made around here.

I'd keep it to the normal queue, the last thing themes need is an argument of whether someone's record lost points because the setup turned out to be busted.
This is actually a nice idea. It is uncomplicated and gives people who want it bragging rights.
Tumbs up.
User avatar
Kagami
Kagami
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Kagami
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7065
Joined: November 5, 2013

Post Post #29 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:44 am

Post by Kagami »

If you care about individual rankings, here's a straightforward thought:

Make an opt-in scumhunters league of individuals just as you describe. Make a PT in which you alert league players to games entering signups. Players can /in to the game in your PT provided they aren't actually playing in that game. On Night 1, players who /in'ed must submit a ranking of living players' scumminess similar to that of the recently completed team mafia tiebreak. That ranking is transformed into a score 0-1 post-game on the basis of who the scum is (the are several easy ways of doing this). Then you produce an overall score for each player using the lower bound of their wilson score CI.
User avatar
Mathdino
Mathdino
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Mathdino
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 14337
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You

Post Post #30 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:55 am

Post by Mathdino »

I was actually just going to suggest kagamis idea

Would make things a lot more fun for that crowd that reads every game on site
User avatar
Kagami
Kagami
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Kagami
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7065
Joined: November 5, 2013

Post Post #31 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:01 am

Post by Kagami »

I may just organize the latter myself since there's no special permissions necessary to implement it correctly, though I don't want to steal anything from Jingle if he'd prefer to take command.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #32 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:09 am

Post by Jingle »

Honestly, if someone wants to take over any or all of this more power to them. I’m happy to help if necessary, but if someone wants to take on the work aspect then I will most definitely not complain.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #33 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:09 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 30, Mathdino wrote:I was actually just going to suggest kagamis idea

Would make things a lot more fun for that crowd that reads every game on site
I might do it if it is implemented
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
User avatar
StefanB
StefanB
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
StefanB
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2601
Joined: December 20, 2010
Location: Germany

Post Post #34 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:19 am

Post by StefanB »

A also pretty easy thinks would be for players to vote post game who played best from each team.
You can't vote for yourself.
The mod gets a vote, too.
User avatar
Mathdino
Mathdino
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Mathdino
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 14337
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You

Post Post #35 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:25 am

Post by Mathdino »

we all know that would be a popularity contest though

subjective rankings distributed to the masses are probably not great
User avatar
ActionDan
ActionDan
He/Him
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
ActionDan
He/Him
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7523
Joined: November 15, 2011
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Inside the Trojan Horse

Post Post #36 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:17 pm

Post by ActionDan »

GreyIce is spot on

Happy to participate in anything Kagami/Jingle engender
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #37 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

In post 29, Kagami wrote:If you care about individual rankings, here's a straightforward thought:

Make an opt-in scumhunters league of individuals just as you describe. Make a PT in which you alert league players to games entering signups. Players can /in to the game in your PT provided they aren't actually playing in that game. On Night 1, players who /in'ed must submit a ranking of living players' scumminess similar to that of the recently completed team mafia tiebreak. That ranking is transformed into a score 0-1 post-game on the basis of who the scum is (the are several easy ways of doing this). Then you produce an overall score for each player using the lower bound of their wilson score CI.
This would make it exclusively scumhunting and not overall game skill
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
Mathdino
Mathdino
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Mathdino
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 14337
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You

Post Post #38 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:32 pm

Post by Mathdino »

What's the problem with that
Most people don't get in pissing matches over who has more charisma
People much more often argue about the accuracy of their reads
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #39 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:34 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I mean. If you want to make a league of scumhunting that's how

but if it's actual mafia play there has to be an actual mafia game.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
GreyICE
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
User avatar
User avatar
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
Fifty Shades
Posts: 15455
Joined: December 15, 2010

Post Post #40 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:41 pm

Post by GreyICE »

In post 38, Mathdino wrote:What's the problem with that
Most people don't get in pissing matches over who has more charisma
People much more often argue about the accuracy of their reads
All aspects of game skill are important. The game is not about static snapshots, it's about interaction, changing your reads, learning with the flow, and convincing people to follow you. But it's all silly fun, so just implement a win-loss record and leave it at that.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.


You are trying to make a perfect system, but your system is not good. It is, in fact, very bad. People will do it for 2-3 games, then drop it, because it's annoying, moderators have other things to do, people forget to fill it out, etc. For any system like this, the number one strength is it has to be easy. It has to be just as easy as playing a mafia game, it should be no different from playing a mafia game. Win-Loss record is that.

It's like trying to determine how good someone is at League or DOTA by checking their CS at 15 minutes, because "win-loss record isn't enough, sometimes people get carried". Only you're saying "well CS isn't enough either, lets give them a popup quiz in the middle of their game to check their game knowledge." That's not going to work.

Implement a win-loss record for normal queues


It's that easy. Hell, some related good might come out of it - people will start taking the fucking normal queue seriously (it is 100% a shitshow from what I can see) and setup reviews might be taken a little bit seriously. So that's two bits of good that could come out even if you don't care about the system at all. And hey, if someone tries to claim their reads are good because of their W/L record, it gives you tons of room to just laugh. Mafia should not be a game of sheeping the person with some random few percentage points improvement over a baseline. And if you want to ignore it? The theme queue is already way more popular, just go there and have fun!
Show
That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil


Official Visigoth

Read Mother Jones
User avatar
Ranmaru
Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7088
Joined: March 7, 2011

Post Post #41 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:49 pm

Post by Ranmaru »

So what actually happens? Basically some peeps play some game and others outside of it guess like the tie breaker? I actually like the idea of it so I can improve on my reads some more. Sort of like a book club, but with an actual incentive. Sometimes I don't feel like entering game after game as I need to take breaks. Plus would be fun to discuss with others and then see if you were wrong or not.

Sure, it won't serve as practice for all skills, but it is one method of many, and should be supplemental along actual game experience.
User avatar
Kagami
Kagami
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Kagami
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7065
Joined: November 5, 2013

Post Post #42 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:07 am

Post by Kagami »

I'm building infrastructure for this now!

There will be a PT and a bot that alerts the PT when games are available to /in. The bot will PM /in'ed scumhunters when games hit N1 (and maybe N3 if there's sufficient interest), and will accept readslists.

A google sheet will be available with rankings. I believe I will allow pseudonyms for the ranking list.

I have also devised an amusing reward structure, to be revealed later.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #43 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:55 am

Post by Jingle »

Maybe advertise the signups in Mishmash, cause while it isn't mafia it does seem like a fun game for people to play.

Also, I think RC gave you a perfect name with league of scumhunting.

You should probably ask Nexus (Nexus runs the normal queue right?) to get permission to use the queue, even just as a formality and definitely get mod approval before using people's games, just in case they have some complaint about it.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Mulch
Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
User avatar
User avatar
Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
Gotta Go Fast
Posts: 16940
Joined: April 23, 2017

Post Post #44 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am

Post by Mulch »

This sure is going to help combat MS's problem of never re-evaluating and playing for glory and not the win :lol: :lol: :lol:
Amrock#3784
User avatar
Mathdino
Mathdino
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Mathdino
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 14337
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You

Post Post #45 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:11 am

Post by Mathdino »

i think a lot of people play more for the reads and the solving aspect than the actually playing mafia aspect

and a lot of people who are like that have quit mafia because it's an absolutely hellish game to actually participate in

i can think of a lot of people that would really enjoy this kind of thing
User avatar
Mulch
Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
User avatar
User avatar
Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
Gotta Go Fast
Posts: 16940
Joined: April 23, 2017

Post Post #46 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:17 am

Post by Mulch »

Yes but it's just going to reinforce the notion that you should always stick to your reads and never listen to others and never change them :D

It's gonna hurt gameplay a lot. Never said it's not going to be enjoyable. It's just deepening a problem. Kind of like if you have a seething pain and you decide to take pills to pass out..w.
Amrock#3784
User avatar
Mathdino
Mathdino
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Mathdino
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 14337
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You

Post Post #47 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:18 am

Post by Mathdino »

or it could show a bunch of people that their reads aren't amazing?
User avatar
Mulch
Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
User avatar
User avatar
Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
Gotta Go Fast
Posts: 16940
Joined: April 23, 2017

Post Post #48 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:24 am

Post by Mulch »

In post 47, Mathdino wrote:or it could show a bunch of people that their reads aren't amazing?
But...this is the entire point

we shoulden't be focusing on reads

we should be focusing on wins

Wins>reads

Do what it takes to win

And that involves not being hyper sensitive about your reads

and worried about your reads

and becoming partial to your reads

and becoming even more invested in them etc
Amrock#3784
User avatar
Ranmaru
Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7088
Joined: March 7, 2011

Post Post #49 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:31 am

Post by Ranmaru »

Reads is one of the many skills you need to win, though. Good thread on that here: On compromises. I know what you mean though, you mean not being too stubborn with your reads to the point of not being willing to re-evaluate, right? I have the opposite problem. Go read the white flag game I was in that just finished, and you'll see what that was. I don't think this will really change how stubborn or fickle people are with their reads, but it might help their accuracy, and meta knowledge. Winning is important, but reads are what help you to get there, along with other skills. You could say that my near downfall in the team mafia game was my bad reads. I realize that now.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”