What Makes A Town-Player Strong?

[profii]

If you are a PR you don’t want to get lynched or NKd so you need to find a way to not be so obv town that you’ll never be lynched and therefore you compel scum to kill you - but also, you don’t want to be such a VI you get PL’d or whatever

This is terrible advice and is why most power roles fail to do their job.

As a town power role, unless you are specifically aiming for people to know you are a town power role, you should be playing to obfuscate this. The only way to effectively obfuscate holding a power role is to play as if a vanilla townie without one: not differentiating your play; trying to have your play be identical.

You invite the loss by trying to be anything else.

I agree with pops' take
You dont need to be obvtown if youre charismatic enough to not get lynched
Besides,

being obvtown as town means that either your scumgame sucks or that youre also obvtown as scum, meaning people can get paranoid you are faking your town game - not so obvtown anymore

And therein lies the flaw with charisma. If you are charismatic and yet not obvtown as town...then either your scumgame sucks, or you have it as scum, too, meaning people can get paranoid you are faking your towngame...thus, not so charismatic anymore.

So your advice for playing PR is to try and hide it by mirroring your VT game, but if you are too good at it, you may generate paranoia.

That's why my overarching point was flexibility. There will be times to do it your way, times to do it different ways.

Part of the Charisma aspect is knowing your audience and giving them what they want... If you know someone who is inclined to be paranoid or you have beaten in a game or 2 recently, then mirroring town game isn't going anywhere.

[Taly]

What traits are unhelpful for the town, if any?

[kuribo]

Incurious attitude and lack of motivation

[Ankamius]

What traits are unhelpful for the town, if any?

The big controversial one is voting yourself out of very specific circumstances (which

does

happen, I once concluded that the only possible way to win as town was to gamble my own lynch). All it really achieves is making it very difficult to determine your alignment while also making you a necessary lynch before LyLo just from the WIFOM alone.

The one that's most damaging over time... is probably lack of adaptability. You can't use the same strategy in every game as town, the same as you can't use the same strategy every game as scum. You need to fulfill a different role across your town games, and determining which one you need to do and playing to that end is the backbone of a truly great town player.

[Taly]

Oh god... I can't stand self-votes, regardless of my alignment. gninwrejnsivnafuinw

Adaptability and flexibility are good for the town, I can see the point there. Not all games are going to be the same, so town must be perceptive and sometimes change their tune in light of new information.

I will say, scum will do whatever they can to spread WIFOM, make the playerlist waffle, and misconstrue any form of solidity town can create... so it's good to have an open mind in solving the game, and looking at other realities; but look at the game itself, and forming concrete reads are very important. Knowing what to look for as either alignment in your mind, is a great tool to achieve this.

[AnonymousGhost]

Having a negative attitude - those are never fun to play with -, attacking another player as a person, and getting into needless 1v1 fights that are rehashing the same things over and over again.

Know when to pick your battles, don't let your fights be fueled by your emotions, and be aware how your push could affect the other players.

[Taly]

Know when to pick your battles, don't let your fights be fueled by your emotions, and be aware how your push could affect the other players.

LOL, I often remind myself of this, usually once per game. I think townies forget this.

[AnonymousGhost]

Most importantly, don't sabotage the game out of envy.

Or AKA don't be a griefer.

[AnonymousGhost]

Pedit - oh yes. I admit. I've fallen victim of those traps too often. Best I can do is be self aware.

[kuribo]

I dunno, my play style always revolved around driving people into an emotional response and judging their alignment based on their response

It also had the side effect of making me hard to mislynch because lynching me was exhausting

[AnonymousGhost]

You do you~

I don't think I'd be good at that, but if that works for you - go for it!

[kuribo]

It turns out it's exhausting on yourself to play that way too. And it really only works once. People get used to your bullshit and you cant blindside them into a reaction because they know what to expect. It also doesn't work on other aggressive players because it leads to both of you screaming for pages on end. (See also me vs Majiffy, me vs GreyICE, me vs RC, etc)

[Mulch]

First and foremost, reads. Reads>>>>>> everything else. Which is the main problem with MS; there are a lot of specific things, but just in general towns have horrendous reads.
Then, being town. Showing that you are town and avoiding getting mislnched.
Then: Charisma. Which is important to achieving your objectives, whether it's sheeping say Ellibereth or pushing your own lynch if you are say Ellibereth

And then a lot of little things that go as sub categories of these 3 like:

- Awareness of how good you are at these categories so you don't tunnel someone when you suck
- Being able to re-evaluate

Etc etc

All the things that people bring up as flaws in townplay go somewhere in these 3 categories

[mastina]

So your advice for playing PR is to try and hide it by mirroring your VT game, but if you are too good at it, you may generate paranoia.

Yeah, and? That's optimal usage of a power role--something to augment, to enhance, existing play. If your existing play is good, but falls just a little bit short of what it should be, then having a power role can close the gap.

Part of the Charisma aspect is knowing your audience and giving them what they want... If you know someone who is inclined to be paranoid or you have beaten in a game or 2 recently, then mirroring town game isn't going anywhere.

Are you writing advice for town or for scum?

Because if you're town, there's no "mirroring your towngame". There's just playing it.

The reason playing differently than you do as a VT is horrible-ass advice for a PR is very much in large part because by deliberately doing so you are deliberately playing in the way scum play. (Scum play will never match VT play, whereas PR play can, does, and SHOULD match VT play.)

[mastina]

What traits are unhelpful for the town, if any?

Not having situational awareness to know that you need to step back.
This applies for all situations.

Stepping back to not have the reads you do.
Stepping back to not be the town leader when being the town leader would be detrimental.
Stepping back to not be a sheep when being a sheep would be detrimental.
And so on and so forth.

These are things a town player needs, so not having them is incredibly unhelpful for the town.

[Lycanfire]

I'm sure having a town leader is one of those concepts that are only advantageous if the situation sucks to begin with.

[profii]

So your advice for playing PR is to try and hide it by mirroring your VT game, but if you are too good at it, you may generate paranoia.

Yeah, and? That's optimal usage of a power role--something to augment, to enhance, existing play. If your existing play is good, but falls just a little bit short of what it should be, then having a power role can close the gap.

Part of the Charisma aspect is knowing your audience and giving them what they want... If you know someone who is inclined to be paranoid or you have beaten in a game or 2 recently, then mirroring town game isn't going anywhere.

Are you writing advice for town or for scum?

Because if you're town, there's no "mirroring your towngame". There's just playing it.

The reason playing differently than you do as a VT is horrible-ass advice for a PR is very much in large part because by deliberately doing so you are deliberately playing in the way scum play. (Scum play will never match VT play, whereas PR play can, does, and SHOULD match VT play.)

are you saying as VT or PR you care the same if you get mislynched?

[profii]

It turns out it's exhausting on yourself to play that way too. And it really only works once. People get used to your bullshit and you cant blindside them into a reaction because they know what to expect.

It also doesn't work on other aggressive players because it leads to both of you screaming for pages on end.

(See also me vs Majiffy, me vs GreyICE, me vs RC, etc)

I recall a game where I played with someone who was quite easily triggered by just saying you're a bit scummy and it ended up in 1v1'ing for pages.
I quickly realised this player was this way inclined and my gut feeling was it was a town reaction.
So when I said hmm something you did was scummy, but you insistence on 1v1'ing is towny (paraphrase)
That coupled with my absolute reluctance to draw the 1v1 out any more than necessary meant this particular player was having a meltdown at points.

was kinda funny but only because we got a really good town read out of it.

[mastina]

are you saying as VT or PR you care the same if you get mislynched?

I don't understand the question.
Regardless of your alignment, it is usually within your best interests to not be lynched, regardless of your role.
Situationally, it can be more important for you to not get lynched or more advantageous (or at the very least, less disadvantageous) for you to get lynched.

But generally speaking, you don't want to get lynched.

So doing something that scum do, e.g. lurking as a power role, is a fucking moronic thing to do because it is increasing your odds of having precisely that happen. A power role should not be playing like scum; a power role should be playing as if a VT--maybe slightly differently, sure, yes, but these differences are NEVER downplaying your capabilities as a town player; they are more in modifications of your approach that are tailored to the role you drew, such that your play is more suited for the role in question.

Said modifications to the VT play are thus MINOR ones. Things like breadcrumbing, townhunting as a protective (to find the most likely nightkill) more than normal, being both a little more overt with scumreads and yet also slightly more lax in pushing reads as an investigative (as to better lay out, "this was my process in choosing my targets"), the like.

Small, indirect, barely noticeable, almost subconscious changes from VT play. Things which don't negatively impact the quality of your play, just making your play be from a slightly more customized-to-role approach, a change nigh-invisible to those who look for it...until the time comes for you to claim, at which point everything falls into place as being obvious and making sense.

Lurking, not scumhunting as strongly as normal, and whathaveyou in an attempt to look more scummy or whatever your justification is to deliberately diverge from your VT play?

...Never is small, never is indirect, and is always noticeable because it is blatantly conscious alteration. Town players will pick up on it being faked because it IS faked, but because they are TOWN players, they don't know that it's town faking it and will first think it is scum faking it.

[Taly]

Stepping back to not have the reads you do.

...I do this... but historically, often at wrong times.

[Kublai Khan]

If you are a PR you don’t want to get lynched or NKd so you need to find a way to not be so obv town that you’ll never be lynched and therefore you compel scum to kill you - but also, you don’t want to be such a VI you get PL’d or whatever

This is terrible advice and is why most power roles fail to do their job.

As a town power role, unless you are specifically aiming for people to know you are a town power role, you should be playing to obfuscate this. The only way to effectively obfuscate holding a power role is to play as if a vanilla townie without one: not differentiating your play; trying to have your play be identical.

You invite the loss by trying to be anything else.

Now hold on. Strong obvtown players are often picked off on Night 1. I generally do think that people are a shade less obvtown if they are a power role because they are trying to avoid a NK and/or have the knowledge that their claim will stop them from being lynched.

[callforjudgement]

On this note, does anyone have play advice for Masons distancing from each other? (As in, is this a good idea at all, and if so, how much should you do it?)

[Ankamius]

This probably mainly is because of my particular playstyle, but I'd treat them the exact same as any other player until I find a really natural excuse to townread them, then I'd keep them there for the rest of the game.

[mastina]

Now hold on. Strong obvtown players are often picked off on Night 1.

They are also often WATCHED or PROTECTED on Night 1.

Don't be strong obvtown, and fuck no, you're never getting those roles on you.
But scum might STILL nightkill you ANYWAY.
Except instead of having nightkilled the obvious target the watcher/protectives would be on, they snipe the role without the town roles interfering.

In contrast?

Say you deliberately try to avoid being a strong obvtown player as a town PR.
You have to dodge NOT ONLY a wagon, NOT ONLY a lynch, NOT ONLY wasting town investigatives on you, BUT ALSO any town vig plus the chance that EVEN IF YOU MANAGE TO GET THROUGH ALL OF THAT, the mafia

still

kill you, making it all for naught.

Just be the strong obvtown player. It is the correct play 80% of the time, or thereabouts. Yes there will be times where it isn't (particularly, games with strongmen/ninjas/etc.), but playing the odds game, the odds are NOT in your favor if you don't.

[Ankamius]

Yeah don't be me playing scummy as a doctor only to get nightkilled anyway because I accidently caught the only scum not getting attention.