Changes to Normal Games

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Psyche
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Post Post #125  (ISO)  » Fri May 11, 2018 9:45 pm

In post 120, callforjudgement wrote:I'd love to see an automated reviewer.

The problem, though, is that it'd make town setup speculation orders of magnitude more accurate, as town could just run all the known power roles through the reviewer to check for fakeclaims / hidden scum PRs.

not necessarily...
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Post Post #126  (ISO)  » Fri May 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Plus, even with as restrictive as the normal queue is, wouldn't this be really hard to do @Psyche? There are so many role combinations et cetera and that's not even factoring modifiers in.
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Post Post #127  (ISO)  » Fri May 11, 2018 10:34 pm

we'll see!
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Post Post #128  (ISO)  » Fri May 11, 2018 10:36 pm

In post 124, Alisae wrote:I thought about joining NRG
But then I realized that would be a mistake

WHO SAYS WE WOULD LET YOU IN!

SO PRESUMPTIVE ALISAE!!!!!!

(no but pls join I want my grandson with me reviewing)
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Post Post #129  (ISO)  » Sat May 12, 2018 9:07 am

But Fire that would be a mistaaaaaaaaake
A terrible terrible mistaaaaaaaaaaaake

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Post Post #130  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 12:48 am

Can we have a modifier for an activated passive ability? So like a 1-shot Bulletproof but you have to choose the night you become bulletproof, or same thing with ascetic. Or would it be better just to call it a different role?

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Post Post #131  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 12:50 am

1-shot normal role
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #132  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 6:24 am

In post 130, BBmolla wrote:Can we have a modifier for an activated passive ability? So like a 1-shot Bulletproof but you have to choose the night you become bulletproof, or same thing with ascetic. Or would it be better just to call it a different role?


That was normalised as part of these changes: Activated. (1-Shot Activated Bulletproof does exactly what you're suggesting, as the 1-Shot modifier applies to the Activated activation.)
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Post Post #133  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 8:43 am

In post 109, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I’ve yet to see a good arguement made why using the Theme queue for nonstandized games is a problem.

There are massive problems with this, and they have all been already stated.
1. It clogs up the theme queue. Right now the queue balance is about equal.
2. There are very different interests between the Normal queue people and the ones who join theme games.
3. The greylist roles were spots for new roles to introduce into normal games- roles that are too normal for the liking of Theme games.

Another problem: The standard is now set to not both alignment and role actions in normals.
Correct me if I am wrong but that is not even a standard with the games.
Multitasking is a problematic modifier; I would not want it to be added in games with (town) rolecops, because there needs to be at least one Vanilla townie! Giving nearly everyone Multitasking also gives massive problems to Vanilla Cops or Neapolitans.
Last edited by Not Known 15 on Sun May 13, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #134  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 9:09 am

I just looked at the last 10 achieved Normal games:
Out of these 10 games:
4had a greylist role/SK/Multiball.
5-6had double action for mafia enabled
2-3had double action for mafia enabled and a vanilla cop/Rolecop/Neapolitan

Psyche
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Post Post #135  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 3:19 pm

i think more people will mod normals as a result of these changes
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Post Post #136  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 3:54 pm

In post 135, Psyche wrote:i think more people will mod normals as a result of these changes

As a result of some of these changes, yes. Especially premade setups.
Other changes like the elimination of greylist will likely have the reverse effect...

Clarification needed/Inclusion proposed:

Informed: Redact information upon flip or not?
Recommended: Redact.
Not redacting brings problems:
Informed Mafia turns from a good power role for Mafia to a Negative Utility Role. Informed is especially promising with Mafia... flip makes it way too swingy.
Informed town now has low risk and requires zero thought. They can freely wait until MYLO +2 and then drop the bombshell, potentially catching multiple Mafia. Redacted Informed town gives an incentive to claim early(because they could die and info would be lost).

Innocent Child: There are 2 versions. Automatic and manual.
Recommended: Automatic Innocent Child/Innocent Child(both possible)
Day Specific is not whitelisted for Innocent Child. Maybe change this?

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Post Post #137  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 3:57 pm

I use Activated Innocent Child for the kind that you activate, and just Innocent Child or D1 Innocent Child for the automatic ones.

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Post Post #138  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 3:59 pm

In post 137, Mathdino wrote:I use Activated Innocent Child for the kind that you activate, and just Innocent Child or D1 Innocent Child for the automatic ones.

D1 Innocent Child is not whitelisted... unfortunately. Only Night Specific modifiers are... not Day Specific.
But Yes Activated Innocent Child would be ok, too.
What do you think about Informed?

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Post Post #139  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 4:07 pm

Sounds like a grey area that the reviewers can help the mod with.
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Post Post #140  (ISO)  » Sun May 13, 2018 9:38 pm

In post 132, callforjudgement wrote:
In post 130, BBmolla wrote:Can we have a modifier for an activated passive ability? So like a 1-shot Bulletproof but you have to choose the night you become bulletproof, or same thing with ascetic. Or would it be better just to call it a different role?


That was normalised as part of these changes: Activated. (1-Shot Activated Bulletproof does exactly what you're suggesting, as the 1-Shot modifier applies to the Activated activation.)

I missed that, I'm dumb

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Post Post #141  (ISO)  » Mon May 14, 2018 12:32 pm

In post 138, Not Known 15 wrote:
In post 137, Mathdino wrote:I use Activated Innocent Child for the kind that you activate, and just Innocent Child or D1 Innocent Child for the automatic ones.

D1 Innocent Child is not whitelisted... unfortunately. Only Night Specific modifiers are... not Day Specific.
But Yes Activated Innocent Child would be ok, too.
What do you think about Informed?

I think day modifiers are also included, right? I think I've seen novice dayvig
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Post Post #142  (ISO)  » Mon May 14, 2018 12:36 pm

I don't think the day modifier is currently whitelisted, so tbqh, I think that D1 Innocent Child would be a stretch under the current guidelines.
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Post Post #143  (ISO)  » Sat May 19, 2018 9:09 pm

Under current guidelines, we have Activated Innocent Child (triggers on request), and Innocent Child (triggers at the start of D1).

The main weirdness is that you can have an Innocent Child variant that becomes alignment-confirmed at the start of a Night, but not at the start of a Day other than D1.

(Also, Dayvig is not Normal, and IMO should not be Normal. It's a fine role for Themes, but IMO the day should be clearly separate from the night in a Normal.)
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Post Post #144  (ISO)  » Sun May 20, 2018 12:16 pm

In post 143, callforjudgement wrote:Under current guidelines, we have Activated Innocent Child (triggers on request), and Innocent Child (triggers at the start of D1).

The main weirdness is that you can have an Innocent Child variant that becomes alignment-confirmed at the start of a Night, but not at the start of a Day other than D1.

(Also, Dayvig is not Normal, and IMO should not be Normal. It's a fine role for Themes, but IMO the day should be clearly separate from the night in a Normal.)

I've seen Day X (not 1) IC in some normals
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Post Post #145  (ISO)  » Sun May 20, 2018 12:28 pm

That would have been greylist, I think, but the greylist just got abolished.
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Post Post #146  (ISO)  » Tue May 29, 2018 12:05 am

Another four more roles/modifiers are being added to the whitelist:

Roles:

Traffic Analyst: target a player. You will learn whether or not they have the ability to communicate privately. This requires that they are in a private topic (neighborhood, masonry, or scum) with at least one other person also alive in that private topic. It should return a negative result if they are the only person left alive in any private topics they have access to, and should resolve after kills.
Alien: target a player. That player will be roleblocked, and any actions targeting them will fail. Roleblock + rolestop, analogous to jailkeeper's roleblock + protect.

Modifiers:

Indecisive: you may not use your night action on the same player two nights in a row.
Compulsive: you must use your night action every night. This modifier has long been pseudo-blacklisted because resolving missed actions is difficult to do effectively. Therefore, this modifier has a couple additional rules if used: the role PM for a compulsive role must specify that the player with the role, when they confirm, must include an ordered list of all players in the game. If they ever fail to submit an action, their action must be resolved as targeting the first player on that list that is still alive. They are allowed to change the order of the list at any time, e.g. if they think they might accidentally fail to submit a night action.

The opening post will be updated with a note for this.

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Post Post #147  (ISO)  » Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 am

I like the stipulation about being the last one alive in a group, makes a town traffic analyst lose power if one mafia remains, I look forward to seeing it in action. Other roles/modifiers are nice but this one excites me
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Post Post #148  (ISO)  » Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 pm

In post 9, northsidegal wrote:
In post 7, chamber wrote:I personally don't see them as losses. normal games shouldn't be unique. The experience can be unique because of the players, the setup should be somewhat standard.

And they said why they were making the changes, to streamline the review process.

You and I seem to have very different philosophies.

I think all games should be unique or put something interesting forward in some way. Having a "standard" setup doesn't mean that it can't be unique, or that it has to be uninteresting or anything. Most graylist roles are some sort of combination of existing whitelisted roles anyways - I can think of very few examples of a game deviating in any serious fashion from entirely basically normal.

Like, in the strict sense of the word it is a loss.



Did non-standard role PMs and rulesets really add a significant amount of time to the review process? If so, I guess I'll stop talking on that point, but it doesn't seem likely to me.


I don't mind standardized role pms. People putting their own personal touches on roles has led to some roles with the same name functioning significantly differently. That is no longer possible.

Standardized rulesets on the other hand is not something I'm in favor of and I'm not even sure why it's necessary. I've tweaked my ruleset over the years to patch up various problems and I have huge doubts that the site can adapt to those kind of problems or even agree on how those problems should be addressed nearly as quickly.

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Post Post #149  (ISO)  » Tue May 29, 2018 12:47 pm

I think standardised rulesets should be mandatory for new mods - if someone has successfully modded before and their ruleset has not been a problem, then let them keep it.
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