Changes to Normal Games

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Post Post #175  (ISO)  » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:02 pm

Gunsmith is based on flavour.

I don't see it making any flavour sense for a Babysitter to have a gun. (In addition, the Babysitter doesn't kill its target; the flavour is that the person who kills the Babysitter kills the Babysitter's target too.) So I'd personally be against Babysitters having guns.
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Post Post #176  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:35 am

Knifesmith should be normal

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Post Post #177  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:56 am

Gunsmith is based on flavour, definitely. This means gun to Alien, Detective, and Vengeful; and no gun to everyone else.

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Post Post #178  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:20 am

Hello!

Some more changes. I'm just gonna make this thread the official place for me to announce any changes in normal games at all, not just those pertaining to the big shift.

An update on gunsmithsFrom the wiki as of this post:
In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers. A Werewolf faction should be treated the same as any other Mafia family.

This list is being extended to include vengefuls, detectives, and neapolitans. Vengefuls and detectives naturally have guns in their flavor; neapolitans are being added for consistency as they're a slightly modified vanilla cop, and it's awkward for them to be given a different result than vanilla cop.


An update on detectivesThere was a mismatch between the wiki and how I described the role in this thread; I've updated the wiki to align with what I described, which will be the canonical way for detectives to work (they return positive results on anyone who has attempted to kill, successful or not).


Hybrid rolesThis has been a sort of ambiguous area in the past, but we are explicitly allowing what I'm going to call hybrid roles. This blurs the line between roles and modifiers to a degree, but allows some additional designs.

Hybrid roles are roles that have multiple roles. Here are some examples:
  • Mason tracker. This featured in one of the first pre-designed normals, so it has precedent with mason technically being a role and not a modifier.
  • Doctor vigilante. This role would be able to either kill someone or protect someone each night.
  • Multitasking roleblocker doctor. This role would be able to roleblock someone and protect someone, and could do both on the same night, either with the same or with different targets.
  • Cop 1-shot vigilante. This role could function as a cop on any night, and as a vig on one night of its choice, but not both on the same night.
  • 1-shot Cop 1-shot Vigilante. This actually already exists as a jack of all trades with these abilities, and will continue to be called as such.
While this allows for some conceivably extremely powerful roles, of course, balance reviews will still apply.

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Post Post #179  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:47 am

oh wowie. the hybrid thing is a lot of entropy. there's probably more to think about in terms of modifiers for that type of role (e.g. something like "clumsy" which can only use all roles on the same target or not at all; or something like "2-total-shot" between multiple roles)
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Post Post #180  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:01 am

Since this was bumped again I'll point out that, as I mentioned elsewhere, named townies don't appear to be explicitly whitelisted.
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Post Post #181  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:53 am

In post 180, Umlaut wrote:Since this was bumped again I'll point out that, as I mentioned elsewhere, named townies don't appear to be explicitly whitelisted.

These are Normals, not Opens (where you know a named townie is in the setup) or Themes (where you can get flavour hints from a name).

The only way a named townie differs from a regular townie is in Rolecop results (and it's normally possible to find an appropriate non-vanilla role if you really need that interaction in your setup; Miller is a common choice). Named Townie might be a commonly used role, but it really doesn't make sense in closed, unthemed setups.
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Post Post #182  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:19 pm

In post 178, implosion wrote:Multitasking roleblocker doctor. This role would be able to roleblock someone and protect someone, and could do both on the same night, either with the same or with different targets.
By the way, this has a role name already: Split Jailkeeper.

Which is exactly what the name implies; it splits the halves of the jailkeeper role and allows the user to both block and protect, but not requiring them to be the same target.
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Post Post #183  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:56 pm

I think the "assembled from components" name there makes much more sense. With a real-life jail, you can't take the walls with you, and lock someone else in place without them.
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Post Post #184  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:42 pm

Logged in after a long time for other reasons, but got in the mood to mod again. Noticed these changes..

I'll rant about it later (let's just say I feel responsible for these changes.. I was obsessed with the greylist).

For now some simple questions.

This thread mentions standardized rulesets and role PMs. The wiki page for normal games does not. I have no idea where to find them.

Are they standardized or not?

If I in for a normal game now, is all I need the set-up (since the other stuff is now standardized), or do I still need to include the OP, ruleset, role and result PMs?
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Post Post #185  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:55 pm

In post 184, Sméagol wrote:This thread mentions standardized rulesets and role PMs. The wiki page for normal games does not. I have no idea where to find them.

Are they standardized or not?

If I in for a normal game now, is all I need the set-up (since the other stuff is now standardized), or do I still need to include the OP, ruleset, role and result PMs?
My understanding is, we're aiming to get to that point, but because of the nature of the task being quite significant to hash out, needing to synchronize between two separate groups, and relatively speaking being fairly busy backstage, that we haven't gotten to the point where we can implement it.

So yes, you need to include OP, ruleset, roles, and result PMs...for now, but in the future that will change.

In other words, the end goal is that those won't be necessary, but we're not to the point where they're currently unnecessary.
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Post Post #186  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:58 am

it's just really hard to make time for this kind of work!
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Post Post #187  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:47 pm

In post 185, mastina wrote:So yes, you need to include OP, ruleset, roles, and result PMs...for now, but in the future that will change.

Thanks!

Like I said, I'll save the rant for later, for now I'll say I'm disappointed with the removal of "greylist" roles, but also the standardization of rulesets and role PMs. The reason for the latter is that I'd like my formatting style to be the same regardless of queueu. It's not all bad, especially if the process is actually sped up (my last normal review took 3 months). And I like the additions to the whitelist. A lot of set-up ideas were invalidated, but the one I intend to run, was actually whitelisted.

And.. I am kinda inspired to seek out the limits within the new normal guidelines. Especially with the new combination roles which is something I can really use, I probably can think of "crazy" set-ups. Which just leaves me to be disappointed with the standardization.

Anyway, I'll prepare all my stuff while I still can, and I'll enter the queueu in the weekend.
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Post Post #188  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:54 am

Hmmm.

With the Day specific modifier and the informed modifier, would revealing information to a player on a specific day be considered normal?

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Post Post #189  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:51 am

That should be fine; modifiers applying to other passive modifiers is something that exists (e.g., odd-night bulletproof), and it seems generally acceptable. Technically day-specific isn't a modifier (day roles aren't normal), so you'd have e.g. a night 2 informed townie who receives information on night 2.

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Post Post #190  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:33 pm

Is a traitor that doesn’t know their scum partners normal still?
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Post Post #191  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:11 pm

In post 190, Gamma Emerald wrote:Is a traitor that doesn’t know their scum partners normal still?

No - refer to the Normal Guidelines section.

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Post Post #192  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:09 pm

Notes after NY 215:

I suggest the Informed wiki entry be updated if it is not normal to reveal the nature of the informed status after a flip: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Informed

I somewhat feel like the interaction between Mafia Traitor and Vigilante needs a bit more explanation somewhere so that it is clearer whether simple parity is enough to reach an endgame condition in games with vigilantes, especially since odd/even vigilantes are increasingly common in normal games.
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Post Post #193  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:11 am

Hello!

One very small change.

In addition to the already-whitelisted Traffic Analyst, another variant of the role, PT cop, is now whitelisted. The distinction is explained on the wiki:

Traffic Analyst: target a player. You will learn whether or not they have the ability to communicate privately. This requires that they are in a private topic (neighborhood, masonry, or scum) with at least one other person also alive in that private topic. It should return a negative result if they are the only person left alive in any private topics they have access to, and should resolve after kills.

PT Cop: target a player. You will learn whether or not they have access to any private topics with other players. Other players in private topics do not need to be alive for this role to receive a positive result.

The opening post will be updated with a note for this.

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Post Post #194  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:50 pm

Hello once more!

I have two orders of business: some clarifications, and some new stuff to put in your normal games if you so desire.

Updates and clarifications on existing normal rolesEncryptor: Encryptor is being re-formalized as follows: "any private topics that you are in have daytalk". So for instance, in a game without daytalk, an encryptor mason would give their masonry daytalk; a mafia encryptor neighbor would give their scumchat and their neighborhood daytalk; and if a neighborizer targets an encryptor, their neighborhood will gain daytalk. In addition, encryptor is now whitelisted for all alignments, rather than just for mafia.

Neighborhoods: The members of a neighborhood should be public knowledge. A list of current members should be kept in the OP for neighborhood threads; if a moderator neglects to do this, players may ask the moderator what players are in a neighborhood.

Tracker interactions: This isn't strictly an update, but something there's been some confusion on recently. If a tracker targets a player that targets an ascetic, they should see the action. This has been clarified a bit on the ascetic wiki page, which has a sentence stating that ascetic players effectively reflexively roleblock (which would lead to the opposite result); the part of the page listed under "normal guidelines" should always take precedence in cases such as this.


New additions to the whitelistRoles:

Mailman: Target a player at night, and the mod will relay a message of your choice to them. Note that as this role can communicate privately, it should receive a "can communicate privately" result when investigated by a traffic analyst. The mod should make it explicit that this message is coming from a mailman, but not what player sent it.

Modifiers:

Simple: Your action will only succeed when targeting a player that is the vanilla role for their alignment. For example, a town simple doctor would be able to protect vanilla townies (and mafia goons), but not power roles.

Complex: Your action will only succeed when targeting a player that is not the vanilla role for their alignment. The opposite of simple.

Combined: When acting, you must use all of your active abilities on your target. For instance, a combined roleblocker doctor would essentially be a jailkeeper (with the exception that a normal jailkeeper protects against all kills, while a combined roleblocker doctor would only protect against one). A combined tracker fruit vendor would track someone and also send them a piece of fruit.

Announcing: When acting, whatever player you target will be informed that your role targeted them. For instance, if an announcing doctor targeted player X, player X would receive a message saying "You were targeted by a doctor ability during the night". It should not explicitly state the entire role, only the ability that was used (so the message shouldn't be "you were targeted by an announcing doctor"). If an announcing mafia made a kill and their target survived, the target would be told "You were targeted by the mafia kill during the night". This is a direct complement to the existing Loud, which informs a player of a player that targeted them, but not what role.

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Post Post #195  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:53 pm

In post 194, implosion wrote:Hello once more!

I have two orders of business: some clarifications, and some new stuff to put in your normal games if you so desire.

Updates and clarifications on existing normal rolesEncryptor: Encryptor is being re-formalized as follows: "any private topics that you are in have daytalk". So for instance, in a game without daytalk, an encryptor mason would give their masonry daytalk; a mafia encryptor neighbor would give their scumchat and their neighborhood daytalk; and if a neighborizer targets an encryptor, their neighborhood will gain daytalk. In addition, encryptor is now whitelisted for all alignments, rather than just for mafia.

Neighborhoods: The members of a neighborhood should be public knowledge. A list of current members should be kept in the OP for neighborhood threads; if a moderator neglects to do this, players may ask the moderator what players are in a neighborhood.

Tracker interactions: This isn't strictly an update, but something there's been some confusion on recently. If a tracker targets a player that targets an ascetic, they should see the action. This has been clarified a bit on the ascetic wiki page, which has a sentence stating that ascetic players effectively reflexively roleblock (which would lead to the opposite result); the part of the page listed under "normal guidelines" should always take precedence in cases such as this.


New additions to the whitelistRoles:

Mailman: Target a player at night, and the mod will relay a message of your choice to them. Note that as this role can communicate privately, it should receive a "can communicate privately" result when investigated by a traffic analyst. The mod should make it explicit that this message is coming from a mailman, but not what player sent it.

Modifiers:

Simple: Your action will only succeed when targeting a player that is the vanilla role for their alignment. For example, a town simple doctor would be able to protect vanilla townies (and mafia goons), but not power roles.

Complex: Your action will only succeed when targeting a player that is not the vanilla role for their alignment. The opposite of simple.

Combined: When acting, you must use all of your active abilities on your target. For instance, a combined roleblocker doctor would essentially be a jailkeeper (with the exception that a normal jailkeeper protects against all kills, while a combined roleblocker doctor would only protect against one). A combined tracker fruit vendor would track someone and also send them a piece of fruit.

Announcing: When acting, whatever player you target will be informed that your role targeted them. For instance, if an announcing doctor targeted player X, player X would receive a message saying "You were targeted by a doctor ability during the night". It should not explicitly state the entire role, only the ability that was used (so the message shouldn't be "you were targeted by an announcing doctor"). If an announcing mafia made a kill and their target survived, the target would be told "You were targeted by the mafia kill during the night". This is a direct complement to the existing Loud, which informs a player of a player that targeted them, but not what role.


Encryptor is currently Normal for Mafia only. You might want to change that.

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Post Post #196  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:54 pm

Yeah, I haven't updated the wiki with all of this yet, but it is in effect as of now.

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Post Post #197  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:58 pm

In post 196, implosion wrote:Yeah, I haven't updated the wiki with all of this yet, but it is in effect as of now.

ok

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Post Post #198  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:30 pm

Just to clarify: the members of a neighbourhood are public knowledge to people in the neighbourhood. You can't speculatively ask the mod for a list of all neighbourhoods in the game and who's in them.
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Post Post #199  (ISO)  » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:55 am

Ty Implosion, if I was smart enough to come up with some of these terms or concepts in 2017, I might have used some of them!
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