What would balance 11-2 mountainous?

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Vijarada
Vijarada
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Vijarada
Goon
Goon
Posts: 460
Joined: November 5, 2016
Location: Canberra, Australia

What would balance 11-2 mountainous?

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 1:06 pm

Post by Vijarada »

We all know that town just don't win 11-2 mountainous (and that 50% EV would be 17-2 or something) but what's the minimal amount of town power that would make it tolerable? Would like a 1-shot cop do it, for example?
get a warrant
User avatar
AnonymousGhost
AnonymousGhost
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
AnonymousGhost
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1898
Joined: October 28, 2017

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 7:16 am

Post by AnonymousGhost »

In post 0, Vijarada wrote:Would like a 1-shot cop do it, for example?
You'd lose the Mountainous aspect if you do this.

Mmm...

Maybe make the game Nightless for N1 (which wouldn't allow scum to NK someone) and maybe N2?

This way the scum have to put in a little bit more effort into the game in order to win since they can't just kill the town leaders and/or people who've pinned them as scum.
Talk Fast, Think Faster


BE LOUD! BE PROUD! BE ANTI-TOWN!
User avatar
northsidegal
northsidegal
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
northsidegal
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 11587
Joined: August 23, 2017

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 7:29 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 1, AnonymousGhost wrote:
In post 0, Vijarada wrote:Would like a 1-shot cop do it, for example?
You'd lose the Mountainous aspect if you do this.

Mmm...

Maybe make the game Nightless for N1 (which wouldn't allow scum to NK someone) and maybe N2?

This way the scum have to put in a little bit more effort into the game in order to win since they can't just kill the town leaders and/or people who've pinned them as scum.
I think this is already a setup, actually, designed by Cogito Ergo Sum if I recall correctly.
wiki | modded | Newbie NewD3 Stats | scripts

things fall apart
User avatar
northsidegal
northsidegal
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
northsidegal
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 11587
Joined: August 23, 2017

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 12:24 pm

Post by northsidegal »

Semi-Nightless is what I was thinking of.
wiki | modded | Newbie NewD3 Stats | scripts

things fall apart
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 1:40 pm

Post by chamber »

A fundamental issue in mountainous games is that the scum can just kill the best players. Something needs to address that. (either smoothing of skill level, or limiting the kill in some way).
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
Alisae
Alisae
lolbalance
User avatar
User avatar
Alisae
lolbalance
lolbalance
Posts: 47090
Joined: October 31, 2016
Location: Cali~ (PST)

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 1:44 pm

Post by Alisae »

1 cop with a random n0 inno + 9 VTs vs 3 goons.
Thats balanced and fun
GTKAS
| here.
User avatar
Alisae
Alisae
lolbalance
User avatar
User avatar
Alisae
lolbalance
lolbalance
Posts: 47090
Joined: October 31, 2016
Location: Cali~ (PST)

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 1:45 pm

Post by Alisae »

Well it might not be balanced for MS specificly
But its definitely fun.
GTKAS
| here.
User avatar
mykonian
mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
User avatar
User avatar
mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
Posts: 11963
Joined: August 27, 2008

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 1:55 pm

Post by mykonian »

Minimal power would do it in a face to face or chat session. In practice on a forum, with half the people phoneposting in their downtime trying to fill their life with fresh impulses, town gets demoralized 2 mislynches in and moves on to the next game.

You could attempt to fix mountainous games, but the practice is that they are too boring in this day and age.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
User avatar
Alisae
Alisae
lolbalance
User avatar
User avatar
Alisae
lolbalance
lolbalance
Posts: 47090
Joined: October 31, 2016
Location: Cali~ (PST)

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 2:01 pm

Post by Alisae »

I actually find the concept of Mountainous fun and I think its perfectly acceptable and okay to run 10v3 or whatever its just that some people care about it being scumsided or whatever when its not the point of it. Setup balance isn’t what matters here, its your ability to play as a player and do well just off of sheer scumhunting. THAT is what matters, but again people blame setup balance instead of themselves on MS I guess.
GTKAS
| here.
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 2:03 pm

Post by chamber »

I mean, straight 10v3 isn't actually winnable unless the scum are much weaker than the town.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
Alisae
Alisae
lolbalance
User avatar
User avatar
Alisae
lolbalance
lolbalance
Posts: 47090
Joined: October 31, 2016
Location: Cali~ (PST)

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 2:03 pm

Post by Alisae »

I will say that I do enjoy a cop13er more over Mountainous just because hypoclaiming is fun and adds more to the setup.
GTKAS
| here.
User avatar
FakeGod
FakeGod
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
User avatar
User avatar
FakeGod
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
Posts: 9610
Joined: March 17, 2010
Location: Bad Player Jail
Contact:

Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Post by FakeGod »

11v2 Double Lynch per day nets you scum expected win rate of 44/91 or 48.35%.

Spoiler: I may have made a mistake somewhere
11v2 Double Day

2/156 Double scum lynch EV 0
44/156 1 scum lynch
====1 town shot. 1 vs 9
====18/90 1 scum lynched. EV 0
====72/90 2 town lynched
========1 town shot. 1 vs 6
========12/42 1 scum lynched EV 0
========30/42 2 town lynched
=============1 town shot. 1 vs 3
=============1/2 scum win EV 1/2
========EV 15/42
====EV 2/7
110/156 2 town lynch
====1 town shot. 2 vs 8
====2/90 Double scum lynch EV 0
====32/90 1 scum lynch
========1 town shot. 1 vs 6 EV 15/42
====56/90 2 town lynch
========1 town shot. 2 vs 5
========2/42 Double scum lynch EV 0
========20/42 1 scum lynch
============1 town shot 1 vs 3 EV 1/2
========20/42 Double Town lynch EV 1
========EV 30/42
====EV 4/7
EV 44/91


Not that I usually recommend open setups with EV of less than 50% for obvious reasons, but mountainous tend to do a lot worse than expected due to best players dying off.
My favorite site mod is Zor Tester.
I have Brandi's autograph! I bet you're jealous.
User avatar
callforjudgement
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
User avatar
User avatar
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
Microprocessor
Posts: 3972
Joined: September 1, 2011

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 2:54 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

The normal way to balance a 100% vanilla game is to change the lynching mechanics or win conditions. For example, the Double Day suggestion by FakeGod above, or the White Flag win condition mechanic in a 10:3 (although White Flag has proven to be noticeably scumsided in practice).

For what it's worth, I believe 2:9 vanilla is more townsided in practice than 2:11 vanilla despite having fewer mislynches. It makes it easier to find scum before scum have an opportunity to kill off all the best scumhunters (in 2:11 there isn't a high enough scum density to have much chance of finding them). In fact, 2:7 inadvertent mountainous (i.e. a Closed game which might have power roles, but none of them do anything) has been won more often on mafiascum.net than 2:11 has.
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri May 11, 2018 2:59 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

CFJ says something really important

it's a lot easier to PoE down a game that starts at 2-5

the strongest players in the game influence more of it
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”